If you read the lambda figures I posted then you will see it was and your last comment just shows you have not read the tread properly and just climbed on the waggon !

 

Oh and pictures of the pistons and rings will give a very good clue as to wether it was fuel or spark that caused the problem !

 

The first half wasnt waffle, its was an accurate critism of poor mapping practices.

The second half was just taking the piss to entertain the 100s of people reading the thread who dont have anything interesting to look at yet, lol

 

So you can tell the difference then? Thank god for that else the whole post pics and figures debate becomes pointless lol

 

It may not prove anything or could prove everything!!

Funny how these pics havnt been posted even though theyve been asked for time and time again..

Luke has done anything and everything he can to prove what he did like send the map to karl and give as much info as poss on here but all that comes back is the same bullshit from the same people..

Then you get the odd hater who knows nothing come on and try and give a back stab...


As for your comments chip about using a bigger map sensor ,there isnt a decent one that works properly with the webber gear so almost all tuners stick with a 3 bar..

Also almost all that use more than 2.1 bar are over the top boost line so are you saying the likes of harvey martin karl and everyone else that does this is mapping wrong???

I think most people could see that your taking the piss with the pirate and copy comment but not all know or understand that everyone that maps with the old soft ware will use a map that has already been written for something else as a base map for the engine they need to map...

Not being funny chip but how many times have you mapped a cossie on the oe ecu(webber)and used the tdr software??



cheers danny

 

The part that has me confused is that Danny speaks of 'our pc' one minute only to deny involvement with Luke and the rest of Epic Programming the next...?

Danny seems to defend Luke so fiercely, even offering to pay for damages if these should have been the result of Luke's copying and pasting, that anyone would be forgiven for thinking Danny is involved with Luke, be it romantically or otherwise.

Seems like the final moment of the EP-coral all over again!

 

intersting topic i hope gets resolved one way or another!

whats the deal with this danny/luke?

 

If you read this thread thoroughly you will then understand the relationship between us and the deal with this actual car were talking about..plus iv seen all numbers and graphs first hand..


i dont need to defend myself to you or anyone else on the matter..


cheers danny

 

This was a horrible job that left ep just before everything went wrong..

Originally the guy comes to luke after a powerfull cvh conversion,he supplied all parts and asked luke to do what he can..

The owner to be polite was completely thick and tbf cant even string a sentence together but thats no real excuse for how his car turned out..

Any way when it was fiorst built it was awesome and was doing a solid reliable 270 hp and i thought it was a really nice build/job

Then the guy asked for loads of other things done to the car like suspension bushes brakes etc etc but he hadnt even settled original bill with luke..

Before all these other bits were done he asked could luke get more power?luke said he could try but it will take a few extra mods etc..

Well a year later they were still at logger heads with money mods etc etc..

In the end luke just got so fed up with an idiot of a customer that paid in dribs and drabs of Ł100 and Ł200 s that he just got jamie the then helper/worker to finish it off with great ideas..

When the car was eventually picked up after many arguments and a million runs and pulls etc on the rr..

It was in my own words fucking horrible and couldnt leave like that but luke said he needed it gone and this fella out of his life,still owing him money..

Its the worse mistake he ever made in my opinion because it was horrid but its not as straight forward as the owner made out by any means!!



cheers danny

 

1 question are these guys cowboys?

Someone ring dominic littlewood he will sort it

 

What has happened to all the interesting facts people were throwing into the mix ???

 

Well i can hold my hands up high and honestly say iv never done anyone a bad turn and iv always delivered what i promised,many of them people do or have actually come on here or have at least met me from here..

Luke has openely admitted to messing a very few out of 100s of customers about at the end of ep so yes some got let down but he isnt a cow boy by any means!!

Every company has made mistakes and does have at least a few un happy customers but maybe they are luckier not to have so many things out in the public??

What you have to remember is there is only a couple of isolated bad incidents that were talking about here out of many good jobs and some very quick cars..



cheers danny

 

Well i can hold my hands up high and honestly say iv never done anyone a bad turn and iv always delivered what i promised,many of them people do or have actually come on here or have at least met me from here..

Luke has openely admitted to messing a very few out of 100s of customers about at the end of ep so yes some got let down but he isnt a cow boy by any means!!

Every company has made mistakes and does have at least a few un happy customers but maybe they are luckier not to have so many things out in the public??

What you have to remember is there is only a couple of isolated bad incidents that were talking about here out of many good jobs and some very quick cars..



cheers danny

 

I fucking hate that cunt... Can't watch him and his extensive investigations, using technology only used by the Secret service and Nasa, only for him to then pull out the Yellow pages and Google. Then after all his research and developments, a member of the public spot him, he chases them into B&Q, shouting stuff to the back of their head and then leaves satisfied that he's brought his man to justice, even though they have to beg the local Aldi to donate a carpet and some kitchen units to get the family back on their feet.

Rant over.

Benni

 

Such as?

 

well i thought that i would post this up as it was the last time i drove the car on track before it went pop this is at castle coombe at a trackday i did raising money for charity taking ppl out i was on some old wets in the dry makes me smile every time i look at it

 

a ducks quack has no echo allthough that was later flawed by mythbusters lol

 

Looks pretty cool and bet it was fun in the dry on wets!!lol

The only one thing i can see that isnt very nice is that someone has puked on the top of your windscreen!!!lol..(joke)

Whats the spec old/new?


cheers danny

 

Mine and Moonstones power graph

Steve's was over 50bhp down even before it had blown up.

Mine showed less power than when on EPs rollers as i had turned the actuator down 1 full turn.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...sv8/img003.jpg

Steve

 

There is a 4.5 bar IIRC one available, but its not the same quality I certainly concede that.

Like I said, I find it perfectly understandable that people limit the map to 2.1 bar where the 3 bar map sensor runs out, even though I wouldnt personally what to do that on any ECU I was mapping speed/density, I would just use an appropriate sensor (which as I tend to map stuff like autronic is simpler for me I realise)

What I was saying was REALLY bad practice is to have the hardware in front of you to go upto 2.1 bar and then only go to 1.87 bar, what possible justification can you have for that?
I know that there is a finite number of breakpoints but if you are running to over 2 bar then you should still make the top one the full extent of the map sensor, that is just blatant.
Thats what I was calling pure laziness and bad mapping, going over the sensor value is a spec decision and hence as much about the customers choice as the mappers, but choosing to just ignore the top of the sensor value is just piss poor mapping.


If they are mapping around hardware limits imposed by the spec thats presented to them for mapping then although thats not ideal, I can understand why they are doing that as they have no option.




Its an age old argument, but the difference is that Stu etc are taking the original calibration and making specific changes to it to suit a particular car, where as you sound like you are just copying and pasting in chunks of other maps till its about right.
So in the context of a music analogy, he would be professionally remixing two songs together by dissecting them and matching the beats etc to merge together, and you would play 2 mins of one song then 30 seconds of another then 1 min of the first one again.


I can give you a very specific value for that. Its exactly ZERO mate for that specific combination of hardware and software, and yet I still seem to understand the basics of doing so like putting the break points in suitable places better than you guys. Which shows how much of this discussion is just about general mapping rather than being so application specific as you seem to think it is.
Bottom line is, that it is just good mapping practice to use appropriate break points and got naff all to do with what software you are using to map with.
So for example when I have mapped L8 on RP Labs or an autronic SM4 or an omex 600 or whatever else, I have exactly the same choices to make about where I set the break points as I would if using the software you guys are using to mess around with your antiques

 

spec was old school touringcar spec tremec tko 600 gearbox new is quaife t5 gearbox and im un decided yet as im waiting for scott to get back to the uk so i can talk turbos to him but im probbly going jge60 unless something better has come along !

 

Wheres the info on inlet temp ambient and what gear it was run in etc??

Also what shoot mode etc?

What boost did steves run on the day?

All the above info is vital when running a car on seperate days on a rr..



cheers danny

 

Surely that has hit some sort of boost cut or something to be showing big dips and peaks like that at the end end?

 

Thanks for your reply chip ...i asked luke why he didnt use the higher base line available and he just said he started with a different one that fitted fine so wasnt a prob..

Im glad youve admitted to not using the old software etc available as its pretty clear as all you do is compare to other things youve used when you have built your own map...most people who map would also prefer that but when having to use the old gear you have to start with something as a base and as there is loads to use its easier and quicker and cheaper than building a map from scratch...

Any way no point me and you still going on about something you havnt seen first hand or even used ..the fact of the matter is did steves car det with the map luke did at said boost and even proper mappers that have used this equipment have said they cant say so...

The only person really saying it was deffo the map is tony and well tony doesnt really like us for one reason or another so no surprise there...

If the map was really as far out as tony says in all the areas he has mentioned i know for a fact someone like stu karl and others would of just come on here and said thats a joke map and was deffo the cause!!!


Now where is some real evidence of something???? like some detted pistons for example???


cheers danny

 

Agree the ups and downs there at the end was either the operator coming on and off the throttle or a pop and bang or slip!!!


cheers danny

 

But it doesnt fit fine?
Spec of car is over 2 bar
Spec of MAP sensing hardware is over 2 bar
Map is under 2 bar

How is that a good fit?



Without meaning to really sound like im taking a pop at you (which sadly it will as the truth is that I like you as person, but I dont actually respect you as a mapper), did you explain to your customers that if they went to Stu or Tony or Karl they would get a map that had the correct breakpoints, but if they came to you then you couldnt be bothered to do that cause it takes time and you're not really practiced at doing so, so you would just copy in something close?
The way I read your posts on this forum, was that you were actually mapping these ECU's fully, like Stu Or Karl or Tony would do when a car is booked in for a proper live map, not just copying and pasting in sections that were about right.

 

Tbh I don't really care as its none of my business and IMHO this should of been dealt with between the people involved not all over hear but that's all in my own opinion ovcourse

 

See chips post here:

I'm not jumping on any bandwagon fwiw

 

Really? Haway man, they mapped your car in a couple of hours FFS!
You take it to any other tuner and it takes a week.

 

As I said, thats how it read on the forum, clearly the reality was a little different, lol

 

If you look at the two graphs on here that show it at 491 and 439bhp the car had covered less than 250 miles mostly driven easy as thats how I treat the car with the odd bash with the 4i
The noticeable difference with the car was felt slower, used oil and smoked heavier under full throttle high speed applications, this was all before the vacuum hose problem which incidentally wasn't the fpr pipe it was the dump valve pipe.

Steve

 

how ironic

all spot on

it's not even difficult to write the breakpoints in correctly. i wrote an excel file once that can read in the binary file, you can change any breakpoints or map values in excel and then save it again in binary format to be burned to a chip. the weber files are that simple (until you get involved in checksums etc as stu has already pointed out)

 

I know a couple of people that have had a map from karl and they drove there and had all mods done why they waited??

He did just what others do and used a base map to start and made it nice..

If you had a custom engine spec that needed mapping from scratch then im sure you would drop it to him and pick it up some days later as you would with stu or other road mappers..this also comes with a much bigger price tag!!

If you can offer someone a good map with more power and a safe afr etc for an hourly rate then what is wrong with that??

The cossie 4i saga was just this..he turned up with a very expensive live road map from tont thinking it had over 400 hp as promised by tony,it had 370 ish!! he was to be fair very un happy and said tony told him he had seen 400 hp and it was spot on..

We say its way rich on boost and gets richer and richer untill of the scale(10.1 lamda .69 fuel)..

Steve said i have a Ł100 on me..we say ok we will work on it for another hour and get the best we can for you..


The fuelling was then corrected over and over untill we got to the 400 hp mark...

This is the sort of thing we did,we helped people by making thier map better and if we couldnt do this we would start with another base map..

If we built a new engine and used bench dyno with old webber we would find something of similar spec and use that map as a base to start with..


This i can promise you is what a lot of tuners using webber do as i do speak to most of these people and have been around this for like 20 years!!

Chip ,..luke has mapped and altered plenty of maps on webber and i can honestly say other than this one that tony says is bad i dont know of one that has gone wrong so why do you always just love to put him down when it comes to this??

What you believe and what you know about his abilities is two very different things..you do of course have an opinion but its a specualted one at that!!!



cheers danny

 

Youve now changed your mind again to where the vacuum pipe has come off???

where was the dump valve linked into??maybe there was problems with that and where it was linked??

Where is all the dyno runs info,boost,inlet temps etc etc to compare..

Most of all when was that engine built and how many miles had it done before it was mapped and see some boost??

Maybe the engine had been pretty worn or even damaged before it had seen proper boost??


More than one person has said clearly with out actually testing the said engine with the said map that any off the points you two are waffling on about are relivant to this argument???



cheers danny

 

How many tuners can map an engine from scratch? Using nothing as a base.

Benni

 

On webber with tdr software not many would bother as its so time consuming when there isnt any need as there will be a good enough map in your software to use as a base..


cheers danny

 

been very busy today mapping andy m's 3 door and grumpy marks new tt38 billet I am still here
I posted i was busy today Danny so fook off moaning about the pics
Any one want to see the fuel map fook me bet on motorway cruise in vacuum it was doing 18:1

 

i agree, they are totally relevant

neither of us is waffling. unless you don't understand it, and then it might look like waffle. based on previous posts involving mapping that you have commented on, i'd take that to be the case. if you didn't do the mapping as you clearly don't fully understand it, why do you even start talking about such things? very strange.

i can understand you wanting to defend your friend, but trying to do it in this way just seems like more of a hindrance than a help.

tony's point that the map can't possibly have the right values in it for the boost run is entirely valid, as the boost run is higher than in the map. what is so difficult to understand about that?

it could be the case that if the timing in the top load sites is conservative enough then it's not a problem, but that's far from a certainty, and that is what would need to be proven by testing of the original engine/map/car on the road combination as others have agreed. that neither says the map is to blame or isn't (for whatever damage we are all talking about without having seen it )

we can argue until the cows come home about the actual cause of failure as we don't have it datalogged to prove it either way. what is not up for argument though is that copying and pasting maps from an unsuitable map (i.e. one with a low 'top line' of load/boost pressure) to a 'custom' map is bad practice at best and a potential engine killer at worst.

 

I wonder if a lot of them have the knowledge though...

Benni

 

Where is it I said it was the fpr pipe? I have always said it was the dump valve pipe which was straight off the inlet, no boost or afr were taken at Powers RR day.On the road it was showing the same boost as when it left Luke, bending the needle on a 30psi gauge
He is a pic of said pipe for proof of its position and connection, sorry I dont have any of the pistons in question



And for the record this pic was taken before the Powers RR day as you can clearly see it has a clip attached

Steve