M K

iTrader: (9)

I put up this thread about which denso coil on plugs to use on my cosworth engine a few months back

https://passionford.com/forum/genera...th-engine.html


I ended up getting the Denso cops, part number 9091902240 the same as Matt Baxter is using so i know they work etc

Well the engine is now on the dyno today and the cops will not work for some reason and they are not sure why? the engine will not fire!

Put it on dizzyless coilpack and it fires 1st time and runs fine???

Tommy mentioned that there is no diagram to show what pin is what on the cops but there are four pins so in some order they should be

12v
Gnd
5v trigger
Tacho

He has traced some wiring diagrams on the net but not sure if they are correct etc

I am no automotive wiring guru so means nothing to me but he said testing the pins there should be a resistance ohms of somewhere around 0.7 to 1.2 but he is getting a resistance of 340ohms???

Does that mean anything to anyone or anybody have any ideas?

Ecu is Life Racing F88

Any help appreciated as Dyno time is costly and he is now running behind with customers race engines etc and needs mine done, worst case is we map it fully etc on the dizzles coilpack and sort it afterwards but sorting it now if possible would be better

Thanks
Marc

rhinopower

Pretty sure there should be 2 earths, 5v from the ecu, and 12v from ignition live. The ecu outputs the tacho to the clocks, there wouldnt be a tacho output from the coil.

M K

iTrader: (9)

I have now found the wiring at we are correct on that,

Need to find out now if Matt Baxter or anyone else using them has run them as a TTL set up or a conventional coil???

The ecu can be switched round but need to know if this is the case because if not we could end up running 12v up a 5v track and blowing the ecu

Hope that makes sense to someone

rhinopower

Also the resistance looks fine, lets hope your car doesn't join tommys circus of horrors

This might help you http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/....htm#2coilscop

M K

iTrader: (9)

It seems that the coils are ttl style and the ecu was not in that set up so simple overlook and switch the ecu to that mode and should be sorted fingers crossed

Cheers for all info

Marc

M K

iTrader: (9)

Well the swapping ecu setting to ttl didn't work properly either so maybe a fault with 1 or more of the cops themselves!

rhinopower

Did you change it to grounding 2 pins as suggested?

M K

iTrader: (9)

Unused 1 was ecu ground and does not need connecting going by everyone else

After changing the ecu to TTL set up it fired then died so as they were second hand it could be a dodgy coil so I'm switching to Bosch items that will be with us on Monday

polly_x

iTrader: (2)

Mark, have you got the dwell times correct etc? If you couldn't find wiring info where did you get the info on the ECU settings for those coils?

They may look trick but I really don't see the point of them over a normal coilpack setup.

Hurry up and get it dynoed and in the car!!!!

M K

iTrader: (9)

They are being swapped now for Bosch items on Monday morning Stu

The only reason I wanted to use them is for tidiness, no leads hanging around and no mounting a coil pack, purely for me looks a whole lot nicer,

Once the Bosch items are on Monday morning, mapping can commence again and be finished fingers crossed

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi marc
plus you can time each cylinder separate

mark

Cossie Sean

i checked Denso coils on a corrolla today if still interested?

Sean.

Brendan

iTrader: (1)

have wiring diagrams! see PM!

Cossie Sean

what PM?

Brendan

iTrader: (1)

who ever needs the info on ford edis pm me there email address and I will send what info and diagrams I have!

stevieturbo

If you have tried triggering the coils the wrong way, or wired them incorrectly, you do risk damaging either ecu drivers or the coils themselves.

Almost all modern COP's are TTL, and if there are 4 terminals, it is 99.9% TTL.

Found this on a US Evo forum, and it shows a pinout




You will need to check timing, and determine if your spark edge is rising or falling. ie, does the coil trigger on application of 5v, or removal of 5v.
Wrong way will fry the coils as dwell time will be inverted.

GARETH T

Anyone ever done this?

johnny99

Why are you changing from from the Denso coils

John

M K

iTrader: (9)

Not changing mate

Problem was sorted and they work fine, was a setting in the ecu that needed changing, all good now and the engine is dyno'd and done

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

I have the Denso CTR coils on my 500 and I'm well pleased with them, glad you have it sorted.

stevieturbo

Any ecu that has per cylinder knock detection will allow you to fine tune each cylinder

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi steve
but each cylinder needs its own coil ,a coilpack wont work will it

mark

stevieturbo

You can still tune indivudual cylinders with a coil pack. Or a single coil/dizzy.

The only requirement would be that there is a crank and cam sensor, so that each cylinder is identified.

If it was a crank sensor only, then it couldnt distinguish which is cyl1 or 4 for example. Although that said....that might not matter anyway.
The ecu will still know a TDC event is coming up, so it can still listen for knock within that defined window, and if need be either you tune that firing cycle manually, or knock control does something.

It would of course retard 1+4, but as one will see a wasted spark it wouldnt really matter.

So really...doesnt actually matter one way or another. Any system could do it.

GARETH T

I know how it's done, just don't know anyone who's ever done it!

stevieturbo

Really ?

It's fairly common on Subarus, although largely used to trim cylinders back if one or another seem more prone to knock. Although they're mostly the only cars I tune.

Obviously you need to be able to know which cylinder is though in order to make use of it, otherwise it'd be guessing.

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi steve
didnt think you can time each cylinder independently with coil pack and defo not a dissy

mark

kateean2

Pretty sure there should be 2 earths, 5v from the ecu, and 12v from ignition live.

rhinopower

Exactly what I said! Lol

GARETH T

Ya it works fine

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi gareth
how does it do it ,when coil pack only has 3 wires ,i thought it would need trigger wire for each cylinder ,and i thought with a dissy would only send spark when rotor past the post in the cap

mark

stevieturbo

It's no different. Regardless of ignition setup, the ecu knows exactly when each cylinder is going to be fired. Ive already identified the ins and outs.

With wasted spark, the adjusted timing will fire on both the compression and exhaust cylinders, so it's no big deal.

And with a dizzy, same odds really. The ecu still knows which cylinder. That's the only key though.

The ecu must be listening for knock based on crank position. It cant be a basic system where it just blindly listens for knock at any time. But those systems are also very prone to random noise it may think is knock. Hence closing down the window where it listens makes it sooo much better.

ozmk1cos

There is a bit of handy knowledge

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi steve

i think you might of misunderstood what i meant ,i meant with a coil pack or dissy you cant time each cylinder independent of the other 3 but with coil on plug you can

mark

stevieturbo

The ecu controls timing. Not the coil pack or dizzy, you have full control over every cylinder at all times regardless of number of coils.

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

ye think i understand now steve lol, i will stick to welding lol ,but just one last thing with a dissy how can you make it spark if the rotor hasent reached the post in cap

mark

stevieturbo

Dont get the question ? The variance per cylinder might only be 1-3 deg at most, that is nothing compared to the normal timing range an engine might see from 5deg to 50deg BTDC.

if a dizzy can cope with that range....1 or 2deg within that is nothing.