casper88

Now I have a couple of mates who own vtec hondas and they all seem to bang on about how great they are..... Is it just me that see's them as overrated oil burning, rattly little cars with no torque

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Sounds like your mates know a lot more about engines than you then, lol

The VTEC engines in general are amazing bits of kit, massively over engineered, and in terms of N/A engines make great torque, HUGE horsepower, massive rpm on tap.

Whats not to like?

If you are comparing to a turbo, then obviously you are just being a bit of a knob as thats missing the point.

luke19790_3

we had one at work, the 1.8. great engine

casper88

No comparing to a turbo in anyway shape or form. I have just never understood the hype behind them. I see they have massive gains when turboed. And also the power they produce in standered form. But they all bang on about it n/a etc but from what I can tell the desgn of the cams gives it the kick it needs on switch over of oil pressure so techincally not n/a as it has a power enhancing device

CHUNKYS RS

i drove a type r for the first time about 2 weeks ago and was expecting big things from it but seemed to scream its ass off and get nowhere
powerband was over in the blink of an eye.maybe if you could get the vtec to come in at say 3500rpm then might be different

Fiesta_Jed

I know that technically they are amazing but I went out on an s2000 and hated it.

It felt unresponsive and there was no real sensation of forward movement down low. When the vtec kicked in it got louder but it still didnt feel fast.

I assume i didnt like it because im used to turbo cars and the big mid-range torque they produce.

Turbocharged b16/b18s look like fun though.

Alot more torque than standard (still a small amount compared to a yb/zetec but it dosent matter because your revving higher)

I would definetly use one aslong as it was turbo`d.

Is there lack of torque soley down to there rod ratio? or do they exhaust and inlet manifolds have an effect.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

N/A = Naturally aspirated = NOT pressurised intake manifold via turbo or supercharger


They are 100% N/A, just much better than most engines from other manufacturers.


You say they are torqueless, compared to what exactly? They make great torque.

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

i went out in a mates one and hated it - you had to rev the bollocks off it to get going

Chip

iTrader: (3)

What lack of torque are you on about exactly?

F20C in a 2.0 S2000 makes 153lbft of torque.
Zetec IIRC makes 137lbft of torque.

So in what way does it lack torque compared to a Zetec?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Its a 2.0 N/A engine, revs is the ONLY way to get power out of them.

You cant compare to a turbo engine

Fiesta_Jed

I was comparing a b16/b18 turbo to zetec turbo / yb turbo.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Really, which B16 turbo are you talking about, and which zetec turbo?

From what I have seen, they dont lack torque at all, a bar of boost on a B16 gives around 300lbft of torque, which is apporaching 200lbft per litre, much better than most zetec or YB engines for the same boost.

Or do you mean that a high boost 2.0 engine gives more torque than a 1.6 low boost one, cause if so I would say that oranges are definately more orangey than apples

CrOwSoN15

The S2000 is very boring in standard form, have a go in something like a DC2/5 Integra, I'm sure that'll change your opinion.

casper88

Oh deer what have I started. I think they are a great desinged engine but.... I think they are overrated and they have a kinda power boost from vtec ie other cars have turbo or supercharger. One of them things some love some hate

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

yes i realise that, but with all the hype everyone goes on about vtec you would think it would be some kind of rocket - granted it was quick for an n/a car but i just didnt like it as prefer the kick in the back from a turbo'd car.

Mind you, the E36 im driving at the minute is great fun, 196 bhp and 200lb/ft with a small welded diff - it accelerates great but shit for cruising anywhere, ie on the motorway at 80mph you are doing 4k rpm

Chip

iTrader: (3)

You think its a BAD thing that the vtec system gives them extra power by allowing the cam timing and lift to be optimised at both ends of the rev range?

Do you hate girls that have nice tits AND a nice arse as well then?



SO much stupidity in this thread

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Turbo cars are better than N/A cars for giving you a shove in the back definately, no arguements form anyone on that.
Utterly pointless to compare N/A with turbo.


Doing 4K isnt a problem in itself if the engine is well suited to those rpm though, just sounds wrong to those of us used to driving petrols tuned more like a diesel like a YB

casper88

I like fat birds chip hahaha I am not sayin it is bad never had nore have I said there a crap engine as I don't think they are, I think they are a very well designed engine. But the hype they have for them sayin yeh I am n/a etc when they still have a power enhancing device ie vtec witch gets denyed by them. Witch is the point I have tryin to get across the power enhancing device they made is not that brilliant compared to a turbo or supercharger. What wud a vtec be like without vtec and a charger instead etc

Fiesta_Jed

Just in general. I have yet to see a b16/b18/s2000 engine when turbocharged make more torque than a zetec turbo/yb of similar spec.

Even this with their 2L/2.2L engines big turbo and moderate boost still make, IMO very little torque for what they are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-xVm...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUFFudEJnjk

what is VERY impressive thought is that the car in the second vid uses a stock bottom end.

Im not saying that they are a bad engine, I just prefer the characteristics of a short rod turbo engines.

the mk1 kid

I have to agree with Chip on this one - the hype they get in N/A circles is perfectly justified - no one is comparing them to a YB or any other boosted engine.

Dont get me wrong, give me a turbo any day, but pound for pound the vtec is a cracking N/A engine.

As for the vtec being a form of forced induction, i'm sorry but


Tom

casper88

I am not sayin it is forced induction cause in certainly is not!!! But is still has a power enhancing device vtec correct?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

What the fuck are you on about?
Seriously, you are saying that vtec engines shouldnt be respected cause if you took away the vtec they wouldnt make as much power?

If you take away the 16 valves from a zetec and put it back to 8v then it wouldnt either, but neither more valves or different cams stop a car being N/A

The basic problem is simply that YOU dont understand the difference between N/A tuning and forced induction.

Your friends just know more about engines than you do, you should listen to them rather than try and correct them when its them that is right

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

Hard one to call I think. They are great engines, I don't think anyone with half a brain would deny that.

BUT, they're not everyone's cup of tea. For a track/fun car, I can see appeal. Even the 1.6 SOHC vtec Civic I had was fun if you abused it. They're not really my thing in a road car though, as I prefer the oomph you get from a turbo car, or even just a bigger engine. Top end power isn't that much use for a road car I don't think, so I wouldn't have one.

Some are better than others I think. I've been in a couple of EP Civic Type Rs, and I thought they were nothing special at all. A very lardy modern car, that you need to rev the bollocks off to make it move, and even then it doesn't feel quick. I think things like the Golf GTI and Focus ST just take a dump on it from a great height, as they're far more useable.

However, I went in a DC2 Integra Type R, and thought that was brilliant. Much more raw and aggressive, not really an every day sort of car, just a thrash about thing, and it was really good, felt lighter, more poised, more aggressive power delivery.

I think vtec engines are great, and they work in lightweight, weekend cars, or track/race/rally cars. But I wouldn't have one as an every day car I don't think, especially not one of the new, very much heavier, ones.

I'm sure some people are the exact opposite of me of course. And then there's all the scene freaks, with their vtec y0! and this obsession with natural aspiration. They probably make it all appear worse than it is

Chip

iTrader: (3)

What are you on about "power enhancing" device?

Would you say that a car that is well mapped has a power enchancer versus one that is badly mapped?

Or that high compression is a power enhancer?


Seriously you are just trying to make up some bullshit concept to try and invalidate the awesome work honda has done

WongRS

iTrader: (11)

You really have to drive then properly for them to be good, but when you do, they are brilliant. Mine never burnt a drop of oil.

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

Honda is great cos i work for them




















or should i say they were great, until i started working for them

the new 2012 civic is quite nice too and makes the current model look well old

cossie891

iTrader: (1)

Oh dear I think this casper dude is more confused the scooby doo

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Compare them with like for like boost.

What happens with the YB is that its so shit at breathing that people pile more than 2 bar of boost down its neck in a desperate attempt to get it to make power, which results in big midrange torque as a side effect and the thing STILL wont rev properly.

On the honda turbos you have a much flatter and more useable torque curve that allows you to make the power much more linearly and further up the rev range.

Thats a PLUS point on the honda not a bad point.


2 engines
both 1 bar of boost
both 2 litres
1 makes 350lbft and 500bhp
1 makes 300lbft and 260bhp

which would you prefer?

cause thats typical figures for a YB and a F20C from what I have seen

Joshy

I think you need to google V-tech and actually see what it is before you make a judgement.....

V-tech is very simply a variable valve timing technology. No different to a 1.7 puma or 1.6 mk7 fiesta. Its just used in the V-tech engine to optimise cam timing for performance at different engine speeds

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Not quite true, it varies not just the timing centreline like most VVT setups, it also varies the duration and the lift as well.

But you are of course right that its just another method of optimising cam timing, just a much better one!

craigybaby

I've just brought a civic type r and think its a great little car yee granted you have to rev the bollox off them to really get the full benefit but when the vetec comes on song it always makes me smile yee you can't compare it to a turbo etc but for a n/a engine it's fantastic almost 200 bhp standard from a n/a 2.0 ain't bad going also the reliability factor is great they very very rarely go wrong I understand they ain't everyone's cups of tea but it's each to they're own

Ash170990

affraid im one of those knobs.... but only beaucse every tyre r owner ive spoke to has said when you hit the vtec its like a turbo kicking in, so when i drove my mates and the vtec kicked in the only difference i noticed was the noise it made lol no doubt the car was fast, but the vtec imo was over rated by type r owners.....

cfoster

I think they are great cars, I have bought a civic type r as a winter smoker and its superb, 100% reliable, great fun, handles superbly, and you can drive it sensibly at low (well up to 5k) and get superb fuel economy or toe it about in high revs and have some half decent fun, knowing its very unlikely to break! Not many cars that can offer all that for around Ł3k!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Sounds like it was your friends being the knobs by saying vtec was like a turbo in the first place, it isnt at all, nothing like it whatsoever in terms of how the power is delivered.
Unless you fit a big turbo and allow it to only add 3psi at the top of the rev range

casper88

Lots of people share diffrent views on vtec chip u have ur view and think you are right and I have mine. I know how vtec works. And I have a good friend who has vtec controller on his car to have vtec come in earlier. It is all about the engine oil pressure. Never denyed they are good engine and very well desinged but like I keep sayin I personally and my personal opion I think they are overrated for what they actually are and they have a device that makes them rev higher and for longer hence giving it more go. In a totally diffrent way to forced induction, but still gives vtec a power advance over other engine. Ie vvt, vvti,vtec.turbo.supercharger, are all types of giving and engine more power

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Your view so far is that they are low on torque, when they are not, and your view is that they are not N/A when they are.

Thats not views, its just facts you are getting totally wrong.

Like its not my view that 2+2=4, its just the truth



You dont seem to actually have ANY point at all there, do you view an ST170 as not really N/A either then?

You seem to be saying that anything other than the first ever petrol engine designed which made 1bhp on a carb or whatever it was is in fact some way enhanced, well yes of course engines have been developed for over 100years so they have lots of things designed to give them more power, vtec being one of those thousands of things, and one of the better ones at that, how is that somehow a negative thing though?
Turbo or supercharger are different, its not the engine itself breathing to make power, its something else forcing it too, thats totally different to all other mods like cams or number of valves etc though.

casper88

Ok chip your god and I am totally wrong. And all vtec drivers are awsome I will make sure I big them all up cause they got vtec yyyoooooo

zetec-Sam

iTrader: (2)

I think YOU need to google 'v-tech'



It's 'vtec' you fucking plum, it's even in the title! 'V-tech' make kids toys!

pee vee

I think you just need to quietly accept, that the Honda Vtec system, makes them probably the best performing standard n/a engine out there.

thats exactly why Honda dont use turbos.. they use revs.

Its just how it is I'm afraid!

the mk1 kid

He's like a dog with a bone alright, but he isn't god - despite being an atheist i understand god has more hair!

I still agree with the old collie though, and think you are totally missing the point....

Turbo/s'chargers physically push the mixture into the cylinders

16v, VVNT, vtec, head work, high lift cams, other 'power enhancers' - they all help DRAW the mixture into the cylinder under a vacuum and that my friend is the big difference!

Tom