R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Stick a ford badge on it rather than a VTEC then it would be fuckin cool

vroomtshh

I can;t believe its just 'hype' thats been selling vtec engines for well over 20 years.

I always thought there was something behind the hype

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Incorrect

Correct

Thats subjective

Ok, thanks for letting us know.

danneth

Go in some of rickylee's vtec projects and see if there overrated then

I loved the engine when i had my CTR you really have to drive them which in turn makes it fun, i love reading the same shit " they have no torque" people make out this is an issue for them you really should go and drive one before assuming this

Theres "hype" about them for one reason and thats because as an all round package there an awesome bit of kit

Chip

iTrader: (3)

People on one of the vauxhall forums I use were saying years ago that "honda engines make no torque" while they were comparing the 160bhp 1.6 honda engine to the 156bhp 2.0 vauxhall engine.

Just cause the power outputs were similar, they felt it was a fair comparison and were completely missing the point that of couse a 2.0 engine is more torquey than a 1.6 engine

Oranoco

They are superb engines and if looked after are very robust. Mate has a CTR with well over 100k under its belt and it still runs, drives and sounds very sweet.

Personally I'm not keen on the power delivery and it just seems you have to rag them hard to make progress. But that's purely a personal viewpoint probably compounded by the fact that I'm used to turbo cars.

packman

Its not hype its fact that the VTEC engine is the most relible performance engine out there full stop. Even in stock form when turbo,ed or supercharged they just dont break hail the VTEC !

danneth

Exactly, the CTR will still pull you well enough in any gear at any speed and like ive always said if you want to be flat out then whats its matter anyway, i went from the CTR to something with 300lbs torque @3000rpm and while its quite lazy and boring ( in comparison ) i still don't believe the CTR was lacking really still very good!

Chris69

I couldn't agree more, great engines but really wasted in a heavier newer car.

RickyLee53

I got half way down the first page and quoted about a million replies so didn't read the rest...

If vtec came in at 3500 it'd be slower, the CTR develops more than 90% of peak torque all the way through the revs. Pretty much what most other manufacturers dream of.

What they mean is, it doesn't get slower and slower the more you rev it, so they appear to have poor torque because they make more and more the higher in the RPM range. But what do we know.

Really? I own all the engines you mentioned there, and the S2000 and DC2 are comparable, however the DC5 is pretty much the same as the normal civic type R engine.

Very different, the honda system is far more advanced, it has 3 totally different cam profiles (only switches between 2) and VVT like on the ford.

Yes you are but your not 100% to blame, its because your mates are comparing apples to oranges.

What you really need is a vtec turbo, then things really get interesting.

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

YEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First thing you have got correct!

RickyLee53

.

RickyLee53

Sorry I missed you the first time around.

Try putting the FST and Golf in top gear at 20MPH and putting your foot flat to the floor. The Honda will just pick up and go. If you drive around like a rep. I.e. foot flat to the floor going through the gears as quickly as possible, please just go out and buy a derv.

If you drive like most people, i.e. normally then put your foot down ever so often then surely something like the honda is fun, yes you have to use the gearbox, but really is it that much harder to move a stick backwards and forwards a few times?
Next you'll be telling me an auto is a better performance because it requires less work.

casper88

Well thank you for all correcting me I only asked what all the hype was about. I now undertand will stick to my saffy though

danneth

wtf after all that you have a sierra?

casper88

. Why is there something wrong with owing a sapphire
?

Fiesta_Jed

This may seem stupid be stay with me....

I would have the second engine.

Simply because (for reasons i dont fully understand yet) from what i have see an engine with more torque than power always has a much nicer power curve for road use.

Im not calling the f20c turbo a bad engine, I fully auderstand that the way the delivery there power/torque is "better" than a zetec turbo/ yb but unfortunatly i dont like it.

I much prefer the power and torque delivery of a turbo engine that rev to an absolute maximum of 8000rpm.



Exacly briliant engines. but I dont like the way they deliver power.

Ad4m RST

There's actually top end conversion a lot of people do in DC2 tegs doing away with vtec for some mental Skunk2 cams IIRC, they're stronger for torque across the range, make the power earlier but lose a chunk of revs.

So vtec engines are just as good without their 'power enhancing device'

Throw in the old chesnut Honda have never had a warranty failure on their millions of produced engines... I think they hype behind the vtec is justified.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

You need to buy a diesel mate, you would love the way a modern turbo diesel drives if you like all your power very low down and no revs.

Mk4 golf 150bhp TDI with an evolutions remap on it would have you cumming in your pants!

Fiesta_Jed

I dont want it that low down, I mean mid range

A stage 3 cosworth looks ideal to me !

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Lag
Lag
monster torque, light the tyres up go sideways
Then you get it back under control, and you fall off the end of the torque curve and have to change gear and start all over again


I love it, its great fun, shit for actually going anywhere quickly though!

vroomtshh

You think an engine with 350lb/ft and 500bhp will be lacking in mid range compared to a stage 3 YB?

cossie891

iTrader: (1)

Thats what its all about

weegaz22

Honda makes great engines, , had a little economy version of the vtec system (vtec-e) on my 1.5i civic, i think this is where some people will get confused, vtec doesnt necessarily mean high performance, as there's loads of vtec designs out there for different purposes

as for driving them, you need to keep them on the boil in the highest part of the rev range to get the best from them, and that might not be what certain people like on a road car, some people like to feel that surge of a turbo spooling up from 4k rpm rather than trying to keep a peaky 4cyl at 8k in the rev range

each to their own, i like both....but then again i'm not blinkered or have die hard allegiance to a brand, if someone makes a good product i'll give em the thumbs up whoever they are.

Fiesta_Jed

Im building my car to be fun. It wont be amazing at anything but will be lots of fun

Joshy

Thanks..

I bow to your superier knowledge of childrens toy makers

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

Which is exactly why I'll never buy a VTEC and currently have a diesel. I like the lazy low down grunt of a diesel. i want it to get me to where I want to be without having to feel like I'm driving the arse of it, or having to constantly be swapping cogs so I'm not caught short.

I've driven a wide range of VTEC equipped Hondas; S2000, Accord Type R, Civic Type R (EK, EP and FN) and while I can totally see why people would like them, I can also see why it's an engine for people who love to rev the fuck out of their cars. In the S2000 in particular I found myself looking at the rev counter (well, the rev bar thing) and thinking "come on... come on... come on" as it was downright ordinary below about 6000rpm for it then to be momentarily in the 'zone' and then have to change up.

In the 'real world' you don't often have the luxury of long straight endless roads with no traffic, and having a narrow power band at the top end of the rev range makes a lot less sense than having the power at the bottom of the rev range IMHO.

I drove a Type R (Championship White Edition) back to back with a Focus RS and the Civic felt fragile and gutless in comparison. It went well at the top end, but felt lifeless and ordinary compared to the RS. (And that's not me writing with Ford blinkers on).

It's also baffled me that as soon as you enter the 'VTEC zone' in third gear you're doing over 70mph. Now for a track car, that's ace, but for a road car, it's always struck me as being a bit daft.

I don't think they're overrated, but they're definitely an acquired taste, and are definitely not for me!

Fiddy

Couple of mates are well into VTEC hondas, its all they have driven for years. Ive always found them very good bits of kit, drive well, go well, reliable, very well built, if you take them for what they are, you wont find many better N/A engines.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Danw, your appraisal seems to be of N/A versus turbo (or diesel turbo) rather than vtec versus non vtec. Everything you said applies equally to all non vtec N/A engines as well, just in most cases they dont even have the go when you do rev them either!
Upto 6K there is basically naff all between a vtec and non vtec engine, then from 6K onwards the vtec wins.
Its weird that cause the engine gets massively better at high rpm it makes people not like it at low rpm, where as without that power at high rpm no one seems to mind their cars being gutless low down (ie a normal 2.0 zetec etc)

We all agree that if you want a big surge of midrange torque you need a turbo, or a lot more capacity, there is simply no way to have an N/A engine of small capacity that pulls well at low rpm, the laws of physics totally prevent it.

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

Since when?

I think you've read the statement (myth?) that Honda have never had a warranty claim on a VTEC system. It doesn't refer to the engine, just the VTEC bit! Honda engines fail like any other manufacturers engines do... well, maybe a little less commonly that some, but they're not immune to failures.

3i_gaz

Cant beat a VTEC motor, must be one of the most reliable 4 pot NA motors on the planet! the abuse they take is unbelievable!! and the power you can run on a standard bottom end too.

Guy in the North west is running a standard K20 on a GT35, uprated fuel rail, management, manifold and exhaust. Epically fast!

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

My appraisal was of the VTEC engines, and the driving characteristics of them in comparison to their competitors. I didn't know the 'rules' of the discussion was that you weren't allowed mention forced induction cars.

I don't like VTEC engines, and I was throwing my four-penneth into a conversation about them, and I stand by my comments.

Ultimately I'd much rather have an N/A where there was a more even spread of power - I've not looked at the dyno graphs but I'd wager that a Clio 182 would make more power at 2K, 3K and 4K than a Civic Type R - or at least it has driving characteristics that I prefer over the Type R.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Prove it, find a failed honda engine that was fixed under warranty

3i_gaz

Dont they get bench tested for silly amounts of hours WOT or is this a myth?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Right from the beginning of the thread its been about N/A cars, we all know that turbos create more torque than non turbos.


you are welcome to start any discussion you want, but you could always do it in your own thread rather than drag this one off topic with your satanic turbos

The 182 are really gutless until about 4K, and thats coming from someone with a real love of them, I would be amazed if there is any point they make noticeably more power or torque than a civic type R anywhere in the rev range TBH, I think maybe you are just forgetting the car is a bit lighter or something like that, add 15% to the weight and it makes it feel like you've lost 15% of your torque everywhere of course.

Ad4m RST

Ok I'm out on the refinement of my pub talk lol...

But still, call it a 3year warranty on standard cars that rev to 9k rpm & never fail where they're most likely to under those conditions. Completely unmatched.

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

Right from the beginning it was about VTEC and whether they were 'hype' or not. I read that as the OP asking for people's opinions on them. You jumped in with your anti-turbo mumblings and have deflected the conversation away from them ever since.

I think it's completely fair to draw comparisons between comparable engines whether N/A or F/I. I'm not really sure why you're excluding them so vehemently TBH.

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

A quick Google reveals this...

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/8206...nder-warranty/

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

Having never owned one, but know about them and been in one, Vtecs are a good engine, no petrol head would argue with that, they also are reknowned for there reliabilty, so I don't know where you get "rattly little cars" from?

Vtec depicts "Variable valve timing and electronic lift control", they have two cam profiles, when the "Vtec kicks in yo" the high performance cam lobe is locked into place and it is used instead of the otherwise "economy cam", it's very good engineering, the ONLY similarity between Vtec and forced induction is that both increase the VE of an engine!

So it's totally the opposite to what you thought, Vtec is sophisticated compared to the basic and very old fashioned method of forced induction!

Think of it this way, the "K20A" a 2L Vtec as found in the Type-R EP3 Civic etc makes 200HP (I know it's 197HP for the pedantic amongst us), that's 100HP a litre which is amazing for a N/A engine!

Martin