vtec hype???
#42
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What the fuck are you on about?
Seriously, you are saying that vtec engines shouldnt be respected cause if you took away the vtec they wouldnt make as much power?
If you take away the 16 valves from a zetec and put it back to 8v then it wouldnt either, but neither more valves or different cams stop a car being N/A
The basic problem is simply that YOU dont understand the difference between N/A tuning and forced induction.
Your friends just know more about engines than you do, you should listen to them rather than try and correct them when its them that is right
Seriously, you are saying that vtec engines shouldnt be respected cause if you took away the vtec they wouldnt make as much power?
If you take away the 16 valves from a zetec and put it back to 8v then it wouldnt either, but neither more valves or different cams stop a car being N/A
The basic problem is simply that YOU dont understand the difference between N/A tuning and forced induction.
Your friends just know more about engines than you do, you should listen to them rather than try and correct them when its them that is right
#45
Go in some of rickylee's vtec projects and see if there overrated then
I loved the engine when i had my CTR you really have to drive them which in turn makes it fun, i love reading the same shit " they have no torque" people make out this is an issue for them you really should go and drive one before assuming this
Theres "hype" about them for one reason and thats because as an all round package there an awesome bit of kit
I loved the engine when i had my CTR you really have to drive them which in turn makes it fun, i love reading the same shit " they have no torque" people make out this is an issue for them you really should go and drive one before assuming this
Theres "hype" about them for one reason and thats because as an all round package there an awesome bit of kit
#46
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Go in some of rickylee's vtec projects and see if there overrated then
I loved the engine when i had my CTR you really have to drive them which in turn makes it fun, i love reading the same shit " they have no torque" people make out this is an issue for them you really should go and drive one before assuming this
Theres "hype" about them for one reason and thats because as an all round package there an awesome bit of kit
I loved the engine when i had my CTR you really have to drive them which in turn makes it fun, i love reading the same shit " they have no torque" people make out this is an issue for them you really should go and drive one before assuming this
Theres "hype" about them for one reason and thats because as an all round package there an awesome bit of kit
Just cause the power outputs were similar, they felt it was a fair comparison and were completely missing the point that of couse a 2.0 engine is more torquey than a 1.6 engine
#47
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They are superb engines and if looked after are very robust. Mate has a CTR with well over 100k under its belt and it still runs, drives and sounds very sweet.
Personally I'm not keen on the power delivery and it just seems you have to rag them hard to make progress. But that's purely a personal viewpoint probably compounded by the fact that I'm used to turbo cars.
Personally I'm not keen on the power delivery and it just seems you have to rag them hard to make progress. But that's purely a personal viewpoint probably compounded by the fact that I'm used to turbo cars.
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Its not hype its fact that the VTEC engine is the most relible performance engine out there full stop. Even in stock form when turbo,ed or supercharged they just dont break hail the VTEC !
#49
People on one of the vauxhall forums I use were saying years ago that "honda engines make no torque" while they were comparing the 160bhp 1.6 honda engine to the 156bhp 2.0 vauxhall engine.
Just cause the power outputs were similar, they felt it was a fair comparison and were completely missing the point that of couse a 2.0 engine is more torquey than a 1.6 engine
Just cause the power outputs were similar, they felt it was a fair comparison and were completely missing the point that of couse a 2.0 engine is more torquey than a 1.6 engine
#50
Hard one to call I think. They are great engines, I don't think anyone with half a brain would deny that.
BUT, they're not everyone's cup of tea. For a track/fun car, I can see appeal. Even the 1.6 SOHC vtec Civic I had was fun if you abused it. They're not really my thing in a road car though, as I prefer the oomph you get from a turbo car, or even just a bigger engine. Top end power isn't that much use for a road car I don't think, so I wouldn't have one.
Some are better than others I think. I've been in a couple of EP Civic Type Rs, and I thought they were nothing special at all. A very lardy modern car, that you need to rev the bollocks off to make it move, and even then it doesn't feel quick. I think things like the Golf GTI and Focus ST just take a dump on it from a great height, as they're far more useable.
However, I went in a DC2 Integra Type R, and thought that was brilliant. Much more raw and aggressive, not really an every day sort of car, just a thrash about thing, and it was really good, felt lighter, more poised, more aggressive power delivery.
I think vtec engines are great, and they work in lightweight, weekend cars, or track/race/rally cars. But I wouldn't have one as an every day car I don't think, especially not one of the new, very much heavier, ones.
I'm sure some people are the exact opposite of me of course. And then there's all the scene freaks, with their vtec y0! and this obsession with natural aspiration. They probably make it all appear worse than it is
BUT, they're not everyone's cup of tea. For a track/fun car, I can see appeal. Even the 1.6 SOHC vtec Civic I had was fun if you abused it. They're not really my thing in a road car though, as I prefer the oomph you get from a turbo car, or even just a bigger engine. Top end power isn't that much use for a road car I don't think, so I wouldn't have one.
Some are better than others I think. I've been in a couple of EP Civic Type Rs, and I thought they were nothing special at all. A very lardy modern car, that you need to rev the bollocks off to make it move, and even then it doesn't feel quick. I think things like the Golf GTI and Focus ST just take a dump on it from a great height, as they're far more useable.
However, I went in a DC2 Integra Type R, and thought that was brilliant. Much more raw and aggressive, not really an every day sort of car, just a thrash about thing, and it was really good, felt lighter, more poised, more aggressive power delivery.
I think vtec engines are great, and they work in lightweight, weekend cars, or track/race/rally cars. But I wouldn't have one as an every day car I don't think, especially not one of the new, very much heavier, ones.
I'm sure some people are the exact opposite of me of course. And then there's all the scene freaks, with their vtec y0! and this obsession with natural aspiration. They probably make it all appear worse than it is
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I got half way down the first page and quoted about a million replies so didn't read the rest...
If vtec came in at 3500 it'd be slower, the CTR develops more than 90% of peak torque all the way through the revs. Pretty much what most other manufacturers dream of.
What they mean is, it doesn't get slower and slower the more you rev it, so they appear to have poor torque because they make more and more the higher in the RPM range. But what do we know.
Really? I own all the engines you mentioned there, and the S2000 and DC2 are comparable, however the DC5 is pretty much the same as the normal civic type R engine.
Very different, the honda system is far more advanced, it has 3 totally different cam profiles (only switches between 2) and VVT like on the ford.
Yes you are but your not 100% to blame, its because your mates are comparing apples to oranges.
What you really need is a vtec turbo, then things really get interesting.
I think you need to google V-tech and actually see what it is before you make a judgement.....
V-tech is very simply a variable valve timing technology. No different to a 1.7 puma or 1.6 mk7 fiesta. Its just used in the V-tech engine to optimise cam timing for performance at different engine speeds
V-tech is very simply a variable valve timing technology. No different to a 1.7 puma or 1.6 mk7 fiesta. Its just used in the V-tech engine to optimise cam timing for performance at different engine speeds
affraid im one of those knobs.... but only beaucse every tyre r owner ive spoke to has said when you hit the vtec its like a turbo kicking in, so when i drove my mates and the vtec kicked in the only difference i noticed was the noise it made lol no doubt the car was fast, but the vtec imo was over rated by type r owners.....
What you really need is a vtec turbo, then things really get interesting.
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Sorry I missed you the first time around.
Try putting the FST and Golf in top gear at 20MPH and putting your foot flat to the floor. The Honda will just pick up and go. If you drive around like a rep. I.e. foot flat to the floor going through the gears as quickly as possible, please just go out and buy a derv.
If you drive like most people, i.e. normally then put your foot down ever so often then surely something like the honda is fun, yes you have to use the gearbox, but really is it that much harder to move a stick backwards and forwards a few times?
Next you'll be telling me an auto is a better performance because it requires less work.
Try putting the FST and Golf in top gear at 20MPH and putting your foot flat to the floor. The Honda will just pick up and go. If you drive around like a rep. I.e. foot flat to the floor going through the gears as quickly as possible, please just go out and buy a derv.
If you drive like most people, i.e. normally then put your foot down ever so often then surely something like the honda is fun, yes you have to use the gearbox, but really is it that much harder to move a stick backwards and forwards a few times?
Next you'll be telling me an auto is a better performance because it requires less work.
Hard one to call I think. They are great engines, I don't think anyone with half a brain would deny that.
BUT, they're not everyone's cup of tea. For a track/fun car, I can see appeal. Even the 1.6 SOHC vtec Civic I had was fun if you abused it. They're not really my thing in a road car though, as I prefer the oomph you get from a turbo car, or even just a bigger engine. Top end power isn't that much use for a road car I don't think, so I wouldn't have one.
Some are better than others I think. I've been in a couple of EP Civic Type Rs, and I thought they were nothing special at all. A very lardy modern car, that you need to rev the bollocks off to make it move, and even then it doesn't feel quick. I think things like the Golf GTI and Focus ST just take a dump on it from a great height, as they're far more useable.
However, I went in a DC2 Integra Type R, and thought that was brilliant. Much more raw and aggressive, not really an every day sort of car, just a thrash about thing, and it was really good, felt lighter, more poised, more aggressive power delivery.
I think vtec engines are great, and they work in lightweight, weekend cars, or track/race/rally cars. But I wouldn't have one as an every day car I don't think, especially not one of the new, very much heavier, ones.
I'm sure some people are the exact opposite of me of course. And then there's all the scene freaks, with their vtec y0! and this obsession with natural aspiration. They probably make it all appear worse than it is
BUT, they're not everyone's cup of tea. For a track/fun car, I can see appeal. Even the 1.6 SOHC vtec Civic I had was fun if you abused it. They're not really my thing in a road car though, as I prefer the oomph you get from a turbo car, or even just a bigger engine. Top end power isn't that much use for a road car I don't think, so I wouldn't have one.
Some are better than others I think. I've been in a couple of EP Civic Type Rs, and I thought they were nothing special at all. A very lardy modern car, that you need to rev the bollocks off to make it move, and even then it doesn't feel quick. I think things like the Golf GTI and Focus ST just take a dump on it from a great height, as they're far more useable.
However, I went in a DC2 Integra Type R, and thought that was brilliant. Much more raw and aggressive, not really an every day sort of car, just a thrash about thing, and it was really good, felt lighter, more poised, more aggressive power delivery.
I think vtec engines are great, and they work in lightweight, weekend cars, or track/race/rally cars. But I wouldn't have one as an every day car I don't think, especially not one of the new, very much heavier, ones.
I'm sure some people are the exact opposite of me of course. And then there's all the scene freaks, with their vtec y0! and this obsession with natural aspiration. They probably make it all appear worse than it is
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Compare them with like for like boost.
What happens with the YB is that its so shit at breathing that people pile more than 2 bar of boost down its neck in a desperate attempt to get it to make power, which results in big midrange torque as a side effect and the thing STILL wont rev properly.
On the honda turbos you have a much flatter and more useable torque curve that allows you to make the power much more linearly and further up the rev range.
Thats a PLUS point on the honda not a bad point.
2 engines
both 1 bar of boost
both 2 litres
1 makes 350lbft and 500bhp
1 makes 300lbft and 260bhp
which would you prefer?
cause thats typical figures for a YB and a F20C from what I have seen
What happens with the YB is that its so shit at breathing that people pile more than 2 bar of boost down its neck in a desperate attempt to get it to make power, which results in big midrange torque as a side effect and the thing STILL wont rev properly.
On the honda turbos you have a much flatter and more useable torque curve that allows you to make the power much more linearly and further up the rev range.
Thats a PLUS point on the honda not a bad point.
2 engines
both 1 bar of boost
both 2 litres
1 makes 350lbft and 500bhp
1 makes 300lbft and 260bhp
which would you prefer?
cause thats typical figures for a YB and a F20C from what I have seen
I would have the second engine.
Simply because (for reasons i dont fully understand yet) from what i have see an engine with more torque than power always has a much nicer power curve for road use.
Im not calling the f20c turbo a bad engine, I fully auderstand that the way the delivery there power/torque is "better" than a zetec turbo/ yb but unfortunatly i dont like it.
I much prefer the power and torque delivery of a turbo engine that rev to an absolute maximum of 8000rpm.
They are superb engines and if looked after are very robust. Mate has a CTR with well over 100k under its belt and it still runs, drives and sounds very sweet.
Personally I'm not keen on the power delivery and it just seems you have to rag them hard to make progress. But that's purely a personal viewpoint probably compounded by the fact that I'm used to turbo cars.
Personally I'm not keen on the power delivery and it just seems you have to rag them hard to make progress. But that's purely a personal viewpoint probably compounded by the fact that I'm used to turbo cars.
#59
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But the hype they have for them sayin yeh I am n/a etc when they still have a power enhancing device ie vtec witch gets denyed by them. Witch is the point I have tryin to get across the power enhancing device they made is not that brilliant compared to a turbo or supercharger. What wud a vtec be like without vtec and a charger instead etc
So vtec engines are just as good without their 'power enhancing device'
Throw in the old chesnut Honda have never had a warranty failure on their millions of produced engines... I think they hype behind the vtec is justified.
#60
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This may seem stupid be stay with me....
I would have the second engine.
Simply because (for reasons i dont fully understand yet) from what i have see an engine with more torque than power always has a much nicer power curve for road use.
Im not calling the f20c turbo a bad engine, I fully auderstand that the way the delivery there power/torque is "better" than a zetec turbo/ yb but unfortunatly i dont like it.
I much prefer the power and torque delivery of a turbo engine that rev to an absolute maximum of 8000rpm.
Exacly briliant engines. but I dont like the way they deliver power.
I would have the second engine.
Simply because (for reasons i dont fully understand yet) from what i have see an engine with more torque than power always has a much nicer power curve for road use.
Im not calling the f20c turbo a bad engine, I fully auderstand that the way the delivery there power/torque is "better" than a zetec turbo/ yb but unfortunatly i dont like it.
I much prefer the power and torque delivery of a turbo engine that rev to an absolute maximum of 8000rpm.
Exacly briliant engines. but I dont like the way they deliver power.
You need to buy a diesel mate, you would love the way a modern turbo diesel drives if you like all your power very low down and no revs.
Mk4 golf 150bhp TDI with an evolutions remap on it would have you cumming in your pants!
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I dont want it that low down, I mean mid range
A stage 3 cosworth looks ideal to me !
#62
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Lag
monster torque, light the tyres up go sideways
Then you get it back under control, and you fall off the end of the torque curve and have to change gear and start all over again
I love it, its great fun, shit for actually going anywhere quickly though!
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Honda makes great engines, , had a little economy version of the vtec system (vtec-e) on my 1.5i civic, i think this is where some people will get confused, vtec doesnt necessarily mean high performance, as there's loads of vtec designs out there for different purposes
as for driving them, you need to keep them on the boil in the highest part of the rev range to get the best from them, and that might not be what certain people like on a road car, some people like to feel that surge of a turbo spooling up from 4k rpm rather than trying to keep a peaky 4cyl at 8k in the rev range
each to their own, i like both....but then again i'm not blinkered or have die hard allegiance to a brand, if someone makes a good product i'll give em the thumbs up whoever they are.
as for driving them, you need to keep them on the boil in the highest part of the rev range to get the best from them, and that might not be what certain people like on a road car, some people like to feel that surge of a turbo spooling up from 4k rpm rather than trying to keep a peaky 4cyl at 8k in the rev range
each to their own, i like both....but then again i'm not blinkered or have die hard allegiance to a brand, if someone makes a good product i'll give em the thumbs up whoever they are.
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#68
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I've driven a wide range of VTEC equipped Hondas; S2000, Accord Type R, Civic Type R (EK, EP and FN) and while I can totally see why people would like them, I can also see why it's an engine for people who love to rev the fuck out of their cars. In the S2000 in particular I found myself looking at the rev counter (well, the rev bar thing) and thinking "come on... come on... come on" as it was downright ordinary below about 6000rpm for it then to be momentarily in the 'zone' and then have to change up.
In the 'real world' you don't often have the luxury of long straight endless roads with no traffic, and having a narrow power band at the top end of the rev range makes a lot less sense than having the power at the bottom of the rev range IMHO.
I drove a Type R (Championship White Edition) back to back with a Focus RS and the Civic felt fragile and gutless in comparison. It went well at the top end, but felt lifeless and ordinary compared to the RS. (And that's not me writing with Ford blinkers on).
It's also baffled me that as soon as you enter the 'VTEC zone' in third gear you're doing over 70mph. Now for a track car, that's ace, but for a road car, it's always struck me as being a bit daft.
I don't think they're overrated, but they're definitely an acquired taste, and are definitely not for me!
#69
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Couple of mates are well into VTEC hondas, its all they have driven for years. Ive always found them very good bits of kit, drive well, go well, reliable, very well built, if you take them for what they are, you wont find many better N/A engines.
#70
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Danw, your appraisal seems to be of N/A versus turbo (or diesel turbo) rather than vtec versus non vtec. Everything you said applies equally to all non vtec N/A engines as well, just in most cases they dont even have the go when you do rev them either!
Upto 6K there is basically naff all between a vtec and non vtec engine, then from 6K onwards the vtec wins.
Its weird that cause the engine gets massively better at high rpm it makes people not like it at low rpm, where as without that power at high rpm no one seems to mind their cars being gutless low down (ie a normal 2.0 zetec etc)
We all agree that if you want a big surge of midrange torque you need a turbo, or a lot more capacity, there is simply no way to have an N/A engine of small capacity that pulls well at low rpm, the laws of physics totally prevent it.
Upto 6K there is basically naff all between a vtec and non vtec engine, then from 6K onwards the vtec wins.
Its weird that cause the engine gets massively better at high rpm it makes people not like it at low rpm, where as without that power at high rpm no one seems to mind their cars being gutless low down (ie a normal 2.0 zetec etc)
We all agree that if you want a big surge of midrange torque you need a turbo, or a lot more capacity, there is simply no way to have an N/A engine of small capacity that pulls well at low rpm, the laws of physics totally prevent it.
Last edited by Chip; 06-12-2011 at 01:51 PM.
#71
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I think you've read the statement (myth?) that Honda have never had a warranty claim on a VTEC system. It doesn't refer to the engine, just the VTEC bit! Honda engines fail like any other manufacturers engines do... well, maybe a little less commonly that some, but they're not immune to failures.
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Cant beat a VTEC motor, must be one of the most reliable 4 pot NA motors on the planet! the abuse they take is unbelievable!! and the power you can run on a standard bottom end too.
Guy in the North west is running a standard K20 on a GT35, uprated fuel rail, management, manifold and exhaust. Epically fast!
Guy in the North west is running a standard K20 on a GT35, uprated fuel rail, management, manifold and exhaust. Epically fast!
#73
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Danw, your appraisal seems to be of N/A versus turbo (or diesel turbo) rather than vtec versus non vtec. Everything you said applies equally to all non vtec N/A engines as well, just in most cases they dont even have the go when you do rev them either!
Upto 6K there is basically naff all between a vtec and non vtec engine, then from 6K onwards the vtec wins.
Its weird that cause the engine gets massively better at high rpm it makes people not like it at low rpm, where as without that power at high rpm no one seems to mind their cars being gutless low down (ie a normal 2.0 zetec etc)
We all agree that if you want a big surge of midrange torque you need a turbo, or a lot more capacity, there is simply no way to have an N/A engine of small capacity that pulls well at low rpm, the laws of physics totally prevent it.
Upto 6K there is basically naff all between a vtec and non vtec engine, then from 6K onwards the vtec wins.
Its weird that cause the engine gets massively better at high rpm it makes people not like it at low rpm, where as without that power at high rpm no one seems to mind their cars being gutless low down (ie a normal 2.0 zetec etc)
We all agree that if you want a big surge of midrange torque you need a turbo, or a lot more capacity, there is simply no way to have an N/A engine of small capacity that pulls well at low rpm, the laws of physics totally prevent it.
My appraisal was of the VTEC engines, and the driving characteristics of them in comparison to their competitors. I didn't know the 'rules' of the discussion was that you weren't allowed mention forced induction cars.
I don't like VTEC engines, and I was throwing my four-penneth into a conversation about them, and I stand by my comments.
Ultimately I'd much rather have an N/A where there was a more even spread of power - I've not looked at the dyno graphs but I'd wager that a Clio 182 would make more power at 2K, 3K and 4K than a Civic Type R - or at least it has driving characteristics that I prefer over the Type R.
#74
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Since when?
I think you've read the statement (myth?) that Honda have never had a warranty claim on a VTEC system. It doesn't refer to the engine, just the VTEC bit! Honda engines fail like any other manufacturers engines do... well, maybe a little less commonly that some, but they're not immune to failures.
I think you've read the statement (myth?) that Honda have never had a warranty claim on a VTEC system. It doesn't refer to the engine, just the VTEC bit! Honda engines fail like any other manufacturers engines do... well, maybe a little less commonly that some, but they're not immune to failures.
#76
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I don't like VTEC engines, and I was throwing my four-penneth into a conversation about them, and I stand by my comments.
Ultimately I'd much rather have an N/A where there was a more even spread of power - I've not looked at the dyno graphs but I'd wager that a Clio 182 would make more power at 2K, 3K and 4K than a Civic Type R - or at least it has driving characteristics that I prefer over the Type R.
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Since when?
I think you've read the statement (myth?) that Honda have never had a warranty claim on a VTEC system. It doesn't refer to the engine, just the VTEC bit! Honda engines fail like any other manufacturers engines do... well, maybe a little less commonly that some, but they're not immune to failures.
I think you've read the statement (myth?) that Honda have never had a warranty claim on a VTEC system. It doesn't refer to the engine, just the VTEC bit! Honda engines fail like any other manufacturers engines do... well, maybe a little less commonly that some, but they're not immune to failures.
But still, call it a 3year warranty on standard cars that rev to 9k rpm & never fail where they're most likely to under those conditions. Completely unmatched.
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I think it's completely fair to draw comparisons between comparable engines whether N/A or F/I. I'm not really sure why you're excluding them so vehemently TBH.
Last edited by DanW@FastFord; 06-12-2011 at 02:55 PM.
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Having never owned one, but know about them and been in one, Vtecs are a good engine, no petrol head would argue with that, they also are reknowned for there reliabilty, so I don't know where you get "rattly little cars" from?
Vtec depicts "Variable valve timing and electronic lift control", they have two cam profiles, when the "Vtec kicks in yo" the high performance cam lobe is locked into place and it is used instead of the otherwise "economy cam", it's very good engineering, the ONLY similarity between Vtec and forced induction is that both increase the VE of an engine!
So it's totally the opposite to what you thought, Vtec is sophisticated compared to the basic and very old fashioned method of forced induction!
Think of it this way, the "K20A" a 2L Vtec as found in the Type-R EP3 Civic etc makes 200HP (I know it's 197HP for the pedantic amongst us), that's 100HP a litre which is amazing for a N/A engine!
Martin
Vtec depicts "Variable valve timing and electronic lift control", they have two cam profiles, when the "Vtec kicks in yo" the high performance cam lobe is locked into place and it is used instead of the otherwise "economy cam", it's very good engineering, the ONLY similarity between Vtec and forced induction is that both increase the VE of an engine!
So it's totally the opposite to what you thought, Vtec is sophisticated compared to the basic and very old fashioned method of forced induction!
Think of it this way, the "K20A" a 2L Vtec as found in the Type-R EP3 Civic etc makes 200HP (I know it's 197HP for the pedantic amongst us), that's 100HP a litre which is amazing for a N/A engine!
Martin
Last edited by martysmartie; 06-12-2011 at 03:17 PM.