Miller 3

iTrader: (4)

Lol, not bad for my first ever attempt i thought ha ha

Moonstone Steve.

iTrader: (2)

Was that really four years ago.....feekin hell time flies when you got no engine in your cossie

Steve

Rebuilding 2012

Who's fault is that Steve ?

750hp escos

I think the silence today says it all luke??lol

Maybe all the figures and numbers have beedn looked at again and people have realised that actually that map you did for him was a good map and didnt cause his problems!!


cheers danny

flannigan

iTrader: (1)

Just can't be arsed with it really it's never gona be resolved So moving on when do you expect to have you're escort ready ?

Sonic Boom

iTrader: (11)

They are 27mm inlet and exhaust mate
Oh and the tubular manifold too
Rich

Rab

My god.............. Cossie owners must miss their entire lives!

Buy a cossie.... Baby is born

Get engine in and running....... baby has moved out, bought house, got married and has babies of it's own!

750hp escos

I wasnt really getting at you mate as tbf your just on tonys side as his your engine builder and i cant see why you would argue the toss with me or luke anyway??

As for my escort in all honesty prob wont be out till next year
LOl!! sorry rich i knew the ports were big but because i wasnt involved in having them done i quoted under!!!lol

As for the tubular manifold well i didnt care about that!!!lol


Cant wait for it to be in car and checked and last fettle on your mates dd rr..

I reckon 580 and 520 but lets wait and see...tony and crew would have a heart attack if they knew we were seeing 2.6 bar out of yours on a l8!!!



cheers danny

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

If I have time tomorrow I'll post up the ignition density table for you as well as you clearly don't understand how the weber system works
Stu did mention this to you earlier but I fear it went over your head
The ignition IS over advance and will cause detonation
I have been mapping these systems on yb's far longer than anyone on this site and I have never seen anyone use ignition figures so advanced
you have been given the figures by Stu that we expect to see, 9 degrees mid range and mid teens past peak torque 7k +

brad

pmsl
Its just the bullet proof screens they have now create a nasty ricochet so you might wanna duck

750hp escos

Whatever tony!! what you can show is what we can see..

It was a lazy low comp engine and ther was no boost midrange so 14 degrees at 4.5k with only .65 bar is fine and everyone who understands this knows it or would of otherwise said..

Post what you want,no one has nothing to hide and you cant prove anything as them figs are fine rpm versus boost..


cheers danny

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

the boost you are quoting is not what is on the graph you gave steve they are much higher
we can move up the rpm points if you like but they are over advanced too

Karl

Hi Danny,

Don't forget that allthough you may not have had 2bar boost on the RR at 4.5K, fully loaded on the road in 5th gear, it was probably easily making 2bar boost at 4.5K and hence running 14 degrees ign.

One of the problems with a RR, is just because you dont have det on the rollers, doesnt mean the car wont det on the road. Its very common to have considerably less load on the RR meaning that the top ignition line may appear to be fine, when in reality out on the road it is'nt.

However just so you don't think I am picking on you, I personally do not think anyone can blame you map given all the other possibilities. Yes 14 degrees at 4.5K and 2bar boost is optimistic, but no one can say it is wrong without testing the exact engine setup with your map out on the road. If it doesnt det, the ignition map is good!

750hp escos

I even txt steve today for a pic of his graph to compare with every other run we have on the dd rr incase his rpm scale is out or something but nothing!!

Why not post it on here as asked??we have said everything we have as its in front of us every little detail..

The only thing the dd rr pc doesnt tell me is what final graph steve left with but the highest boost graph listed is 491 hp at the boost pressures above also the curser on the pc itself goes on the exact axis so much easier to read a pin point rpm level..


Get the graph up then i can compare to our one of many...



cheers danny

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

I'll post a little more diplomatically as Karl has done
your ignition timing is very optimistic

750hp escos

Karl i appreciate evrything your saying there as yes iv seen that many times before to but the beauty with the dd rr is that when you load solid state you can replicate the same loads as on the road..


In shoot mode it will indeed see less boost but we have all pulls recorded and the boost wont go from.65 bar to 2 bar at that point imo..

Also the engine just wouldnt make the boost that low as mbt was found and it was very lazy down there and only started coming to life at 5k hard..

I cant personally gaurantee that something may have been a miss because i didnt do it neither was i there but i do have faith in lukes maps and he is adamant he did it all good..

Maybe you could act as an independent referee here because id happily send you the map and all records for your opinion??

I will stand by my word and pay for pistons and luke would have to hold his hands up if you could say it was a bad map??


cheers danny

750hp escos

Well iv compared a few other t4 ignition maps we have and over layed them on pc and there is a few on there with the same sort of ignition maps and they were done on bench so just saying they are optimistic is a stupid comment although there are others that are lower but as said it was a bit lazy down low so theres no way imo it could see 2 bar at 4.5 k

Infact i dont think many 7.4 cr t4 engines could make 2 bar at 4.5k? how many have you seen??although im sure its possible with better spec than steves had..


cheers danny

Karl

Hi Danny,

I'll gladly give you my opinion of the map if you'd like to post me a copy of the chip or you can email me the file.

The problem is even if I did think the ignition timing was a little over advanced for what I'd consider normal for that engine spec, without actually running the car and testing for det I couldnt condemn the map. Many factors effect the optimum ignition timing, and for example a long duration inlet cam allows significantly more midrange ignition to be used before the onset of det.

In any case I would'nt post my findings publically on here. I would pm you with my opinion, but even then I could'nt say for sure the map would cause det without actually testing the engine, car and map in its original form. Sorry to sit on the fence, but really thats the only fair place to sit!

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

his spec is not a laggy spec
std head port stock exhaust cam 7.4
curious why you advanced the 4k rpm load site and 4.5k at the 1.87 bar top boost line you put in if you say it was only at 0.65 bar
how can you map a load site your not actually on

750hp escos

Ok thanks for your reply karl and for the offer i will get a map sent to you very soon..

I appreciate the way your dealing with things and your approach and understanding ..



cheers danny

flannigan

iTrader: (1)

Danny I build my own engines but I can't map for shit so I leave that to a professional !

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Personally any load site that I cant get a car loaded up enough to go onto when mapping it I put a very conservative estimate into that cell rather than an optimistic one.

750hp escos

Mate me and luke mapped my escort after 2 very well known tuners had supposedly professionally mapped it and we achieved better results..

Im sure at over 600 hp and being ragged to death every opportunity that if mapped badly it wouldnt of lasted the last 3 years of its life and still stay intact..

Infact that very same engine has just had its first set of new pistons since 2005 and the bottom end sold on,re mapped by luke again and going strong...

So i can build them and map them with out having to trust someone else to do it..



cheers danny

cossie891

iTrader: (1)

Guys Fuck what has this got to do with the orig thread

Danny start your own with Tony please

I aint on any 1s side either as I dont know either of you but I have spoke to Tone loads of times and he comes across as a very clever man defo knows what he is talking about

Ima Racing

iTrader: (1)

Surely an optimistic ignition curve would slowly destroy an engine whereas running on boost with the vacuum pipe blown off the fpr would destroy engine very quick?

750hp escos

The problem was apparent soon after the rr day where pipe was left of..

The way tony goes on about the map i dont think it would of lasted 5 mins!!!



cheers danny

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

have you emailed karl the map yet
I'll post this link again for you both have a good read
if you need any points explaining please feel free to ask and I'm sure either Stu karl or myself will help you with them
http://www.enginelogics.com/detonation.html

CossieRich

iTrader: (1)

Phil - Surely it depends on how long the engine saw det for. 2 seconds of det from an optimistic ignition curve is very different from 20 seconds.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

and to the point it would be like a final fuel cut so might not of even seen det at all

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

does anyone know the history of this engine and where it came from

750hp escos

[quote=Turbosystems;6000106]have you emailed karl the map yet
I'll post this link again for you both have a good read
if you need any points explaining please feel free to ask and I'm sure either Stu karl or myself will help you with them
http://www.enginelogics.com/detonation.html[/qu


Surely its only fair to post a pic of the pistons so we can see the det for our selves ??

The map will be forwarded on to karl


cheers danny

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

I will take some pics and post them up as long as you promise not to say or imply these aren't moonstones pistons

750hp escos

I think we should atleast trust eachother when it comes to all of this!!

Im not going to say theyre not steves because i really dont know but even after all our differences tony i really cant see the point in lying about anything just to make a point??

Im honestly telling you everything seen and done my end and im sure you will your end but i would like to see steves pistons..


cheers danny

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

I'm sure Steve would like to show Luke his pistons personally, very personally

Mr RS500

iTrader: (6)

Danny

My cars just come out to show , correct

Im a bufty , and one of the best buftys on the scene

Im good at what i do and i doubt anyone would argue

I dont pretend to be a tuner as i would be crap at it ,

If we all stuck to what we are good at then these threads wouldnt exist

750hp escos

Im good at what i do mate as i wouldnt bother..

A bufty race car imo is a waste of space!!!

Try driving them!!!

Im also a good driver hence why i build fast cars..

There a lot of people that have fast cars because of me so il stick to what i do thanks..

There is also a lot of people that have mint bufty cars thanks to me so il continue that too..

You have no first hand experience on anything i do so again dont speculate because youve heard a couple of things ..

I think your cars are a waste as lovely as they are what are they doing??

Thats just my opinion and they are gorgeous ornaments so who gives a toss what i think??

As for me why do you care what i do??you have and will never have a reason to care about what i do for a hobby or a living so unless you have something sensible to say to me or about me dont comment!!!

Stick to stripping cars and then polishing your own and il continue doing what i like and enjoy!!


cheers danny

750hp escos

Why come out with something so stupid???

Just put the pics up!! this is getting stupid!!

Steve says his graph says this and that but wont post it you say this and that but dont show any evidence wtf is going on here??

Now there is threats from steve via you..its becoming a joke..

Lets just get all the evidence together and get this resolved as everyone is going on like fucking kids in a play ground!!!


cheers danny

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

a good word for this thread is assumption

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

As much as it pains me to do so (as he's a shit stirring cock ), I'm with Phil on this one. IF the vacuum hose popped off the fuel regulator on the car as is being stated, and was driven any distance like this allowing the engine to come on boost, then I would be more inclined to blame this for the engine damage than the map. As Karl has correctly stated, you can't point a finger at the map JUST by reading the files.

However, just to confirm, Tony is saying that Luke's map has 14° of ignition at 2.87 bar (absolute) at 4500rpm? Given that to achieve this ignition value, the engine has to see this boost pressure (1.87 bar net) at this rpm point, where by all accounts on the rolling road, the car can't physically make 1.87 bar at 4500rpm, I can't personally see how it could be blamed for wrecking the engine? Obviously as Chip has said, it would be better to have a conservative value in there, but if the engine can't physically make this boost at this rpm, it is unlikely to be the cause of the failure (the only way to check this would be to rebuild the engine as it was, and datalog the boost pressures on a fully loaded run to see what load sites it was hitting).

Accordingly, IF it was physically impossible for the engine to achieve 1.87 bar at 4500rpm, I would not be worried by that ignition value in any way, shape or form.

To really build up a more accurate picture, you would want to see ALL the ignition values at each rpm point / boost point. As an example, a typical 83lb chip runs the following ignition values at 4490rpm:
25.25° at 0.24 bar
25.25° at 0.69 bar
21.50° at 0.96 bar
16.75 at 1.32 bar
10.75° at 1.82 bar
8.5° at 2.1 bar

However, Tony hasn't yet put what the full list is for Luke's chip, so we can't see what ignition value to would be running at 0.65 bar at 4500rpm, which is what it makes fully loaded on the DD RR at this rpm.

I have personally suffered a vacuum hose coming off my regulator and what happens is that it no longer becomes rising rate - instead the fuel pressure remains static no matter how much boost the engine sees (I don't need to tell anyone how bad this is for an engine?). If you're lucky and you spot it without coming on boost, then you won't see any damage. If you give it some welly a couple of times, then the engine might survive, but suffer some damage and then when the hose is put back on, unless you check with a borescope, you have no idea if the engine suffered any det sufficient to cause any damage or not.

Eventually the engine can let go several months down the line due to cumulative wear and tear initiated by the hose coming off (you can normally tell the age of the det by looking at the pistons, fresh det compared to old det "should" be pretty obvious). If you're REALLY unlucky like I was, you'll give it three quick blats up to three figure speeds and the engine will lunch itself leaving you stranded in Scotland (and that's with a baby T34 ). From then on I soon learned to lockwire the vacuum pipe in place .

In the meantime, I too would like to wish Luke all the best, as I cannot even begin to imagine how I could have coped having been through what he has. I also have a new found respect for Danny for sticking by his friend through thick and thin. I only hope the people I think of as good friends would stand by me in the same way if I was ever to be in a similar situation .