Zetec turbo on the cheap.
20-07-2011 | 03:33 PM
#122
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i think so....how long it lasts, who knows.
On my Focus i wanted to-
Use stock engine, nothing touched- Free, in the car already
Use T3 turbo- £50-350
use ERST manifold- £60
use FRS injectors or similar-£160
Use stock inlet
Cheapo intercooler off fleabay- £100-150
and get Jamsport to map the standard ecu...estimate £450
It seems cheap and nasty, and it is...but that doesn't mean it won't work. I spoke to JS about the ECU and mapping, they have done it.
I was thinking of running between 5-10psi and seeing an easy 230bhp
Only thing that stopped me is my love for my other cars...and the fact i would need a clutch which would cost around half of my "pikey ZT" budget
20-07-2011 | 03:34 PM
#123
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I'd say a grand is maybe pushing it, maybe though, depends how much power are you after and how reliable do you want it to be, I mean maybe you could just fit some valve springs from piper/area six, some rod bolts, second hand turbo and manifold off a focus rs or rs turbo, etc etc. I'd be interested to see though.
Valve springs are nice, but not essential IMO
and Luka...BOOK CLUB!!
20-07-2011 | 03:34 PM
#124
£100 on an engine, £80 decomp plate, £30 headgasket, £150 second hand ap 4 paddle clutch, £30 xr2i flywheel, £100 rs turbo gearbox if you don't already have one, adaptor plates for manifolds £120 or there abouts.
efi inlet, could use a zetec so/ho one for easier fitment, or else cvh efi one £50
bigger injectors, pay what you like circa £80
then ofab and get it remapped.
this all depends if you can do it yourself and weld etc.
it can eb done. but depends on how long you want bits to last on it.
20-07-2011 | 03:35 PM
#125
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From: West Wales
i think so....how long it lasts, who knows.
On my Focus i wanted to-
Use stock engine, nothing touched- Free, in the car already
Use T3 turbo- £50-350
use ERST manifold- £60
use FRS injectors or similar-£160
Use stock inlet
Cheapo intercooler off fleabay- £100-150
and get Jamsport to map the standard ecu...estimate £450
It seems cheap and nasty, and it is...but that doesn't mean it won't work. I spoke to JS about the ECU and mapping, they have done it.
I was thinking of running between 5-10psi and seeing an easy 230bhp
Only thing that stopped me is my love for my other cars...and the fact i would need a clutch which would cost around half of my "pikey ZT" budget
On my Focus i wanted to-
Use stock engine, nothing touched- Free, in the car already
Use T3 turbo- £50-350
use ERST manifold- £60
use FRS injectors or similar-£160
Use stock inlet
Cheapo intercooler off fleabay- £100-150
and get Jamsport to map the standard ecu...estimate £450
It seems cheap and nasty, and it is...but that doesn't mean it won't work. I spoke to JS about the ECU and mapping, they have done it.
I was thinking of running between 5-10psi and seeing an easy 230bhp
Only thing that stopped me is my love for my other cars...and the fact i would need a clutch which would cost around half of my "pikey ZT" budget
20-07-2011 | 03:44 PM
#126
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If someone paid, of course....but i can't warrant running three forced induction cars. My track shed is just eating up every penny of car-cash i have so i can't do it yet.
It is totally do-able IMO.
My Blacktop has standard compression and runs 13psi, gets pure stick. So i would want to try it without a de-comp...i'd expect it to be real punchy.
Jamsport have previously mapped the stock ECU with good results, Jamie admitted "it's not the best way to do it, but it can be done, is safe and we've done it"
Really really tempted me, i started to scribble my ideas down, but when it comes to it...even if it costs me just £600....i can't warrant it until the FRST is running.
It is totally do-able IMO.
My Blacktop has standard compression and runs 13psi, gets pure stick. So i would want to try it without a de-comp...i'd expect it to be real punchy.
Jamsport have previously mapped the stock ECU with good results, Jamie admitted "it's not the best way to do it, but it can be done, is safe and we've done it"
Really really tempted me, i started to scribble my ideas down, but when it comes to it...even if it costs me just £600....i can't warrant it until the FRST is running.
20-07-2011 | 03:57 PM
#127
Thread Starter
Ben
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,853
Likes: 55
From: Peterborough
Well I've already got the engine, silvertop though, thing is it came with megajolt ecu, would this run it or would you definitely recommend ofab?
Im seriously considering your idea Neil, I'll have to let you know how it pans out
and whether it lasts
Ben.
Im seriously considering your idea Neil, I'll have to let you know how it pans out
and whether it lasts Ben.
20-07-2011 | 04:04 PM
#128
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From: Under the car :cry:
Neil that list for the focus could be perfect for me!
i have a mk1 2l zetec as a daily driver with st170 brakes, braided hoses, cat back system and replaced things like lower arms, etc so is in really good nick. i've done some track days in it and its brilliant for what it is so when i get my working life in order i plan to turn it into a track toy. i keep flicking between the idea of turboing the completely standard lump with about 10psi or going throttle bodies, cams, mtech v4 and st170 exhaust manifold but will prob turbo it to experiment.
my thinking is i've seen standard black tops with the powerworks superchargers and i think they run about 12psi standard and produce about 240bhp safely so turboing to that level should also be pretty safe.
perhaps thats the limit with stock valve springs or maybe you could go 260bhp, perhaps even 270-280bhp is possible with just uprated valve springs...cerainly something i'd like to try as all the bolt on bits are transferable and the engine can just be replaced for cheap if it does go bang and then we will all know the limits.
anybody got any thoughts on my thniking there?
i have a mk1 2l zetec as a daily driver with st170 brakes, braided hoses, cat back system and replaced things like lower arms, etc so is in really good nick. i've done some track days in it and its brilliant for what it is so when i get my working life in order i plan to turn it into a track toy. i keep flicking between the idea of turboing the completely standard lump with about 10psi or going throttle bodies, cams, mtech v4 and st170 exhaust manifold but will prob turbo it to experiment.
my thinking is i've seen standard black tops with the powerworks superchargers and i think they run about 12psi standard and produce about 240bhp safely so turboing to that level should also be pretty safe.
perhaps thats the limit with stock valve springs or maybe you could go 260bhp, perhaps even 270-280bhp is possible with just uprated valve springs...cerainly something i'd like to try as all the bolt on bits are transferable and the engine can just be replaced for cheap if it does go bang and then we will all know the limits.
anybody got any thoughts on my thniking there?
20-07-2011 | 04:05 PM
#129
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Try it or a slight variation on it, it seems terrible at a glance but i am convinced it will work and do ok.
I honestly dont see why it won't work, and as long as mapped well and running sensible egt's it should....i wouldn't put more than 10psi into it, but it's enogh for a cheap upgrade.
I wanted to get over 200bhp from my Focus and pricing things up and looking at options, i hatched that idea.
dammit! I am patenting that idea now...i want royalty fees! So i can build my own
aye Phil, on the valve springs...i ragged my FRST on quite a lot of track days with a totally stock head, and was doing bang on 270bhp...no issues, rev limit capped at 7,200.
I only changed them cause i wanted to change cams for more torque and a little peace of mind. Still running standard port size though.
I honestly dont see why it won't work, and as long as mapped well and running sensible egt's it should....i wouldn't put more than 10psi into it, but it's enogh for a cheap upgrade.
I wanted to get over 200bhp from my Focus and pricing things up and looking at options, i hatched that idea.
dammit! I am patenting that idea now...i want royalty fees! So i can build my own
aye Phil, on the valve springs...i ragged my FRST on quite a lot of track days with a totally stock head, and was doing bang on 270bhp...no issues, rev limit capped at 7,200.
I only changed them cause i wanted to change cams for more torque and a little peace of mind. Still running standard port size though.
Last edited by Neil@FastFord; 20-07-2011 at 04:10 PM. Reason: to talk to phil...not frank
20-07-2011 | 04:12 PM
#130
Waiting on my fast ford..
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 455
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From: East Ayrshire
Neil, have you considered an ST170 bottom end if you fancy turboing the focus? When I was speccing my ZT for the Fez Simon showed me an S2 which was running an ST170 engine(standard internals) with a GT25, sure it was running around 280bhp if not more.
Would be interesting to see what could be had with a T3, the internals can cope with it if not abused and stronger than standard blacktop.
Defo worth looking into the ST170 engine for ZT tuning if people are only looking for 230-250bhp.
Adam
Would be interesting to see what could be had with a T3, the internals can cope with it if not abused and stronger than standard blacktop.
Defo worth looking into the ST170 engine for ZT tuning if people are only looking for 230-250bhp.
Adam
Last edited by Adam31; 20-07-2011 at 04:13 PM.
20-07-2011 | 04:22 PM
#132
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From: Under the car :cry:
haha, you better get to the patet office quick then as i'm already in the car :P
thats good news for me on the valve springs and i'd be sticking to pretty standart rev limit of 6,800 rpm or maybe up it to 7,000 but i don't want to through a rod for revving it silly. my engines done 108k now, i've had it since about 87k and have used it pretty hard at shakespear county raceway and some smaller track days. have hit the rev limiter a fair bit and all is well so i'm happy its a strong base to turbo.
a couple of weeks ago i did a track day a Llandow and while i was keeping up with the similar powerd cars (and even the ones with coilovers and track tyres) it was really lacking power on the straights so ideally i'd like to run 220bhp but with some form of progressive boost so i don't get shed loads of wheel spin mid corner when on gentle throttle. it'll be a fun experiment at the end of the day.
come to think of it, the engine mods are gonna be a less than half the cost of all the other mods like coilovers, diff, tyres, pads, harnesses, seats, etc.
thats good news for me on the valve springs and i'd be sticking to pretty standart rev limit of 6,800 rpm or maybe up it to 7,000 but i don't want to through a rod for revving it silly. my engines done 108k now, i've had it since about 87k and have used it pretty hard at shakespear county raceway and some smaller track days. have hit the rev limiter a fair bit and all is well so i'm happy its a strong base to turbo.
a couple of weeks ago i did a track day a Llandow and while i was keeping up with the similar powerd cars (and even the ones with coilovers and track tyres) it was really lacking power on the straights so ideally i'd like to run 220bhp but with some form of progressive boost so i don't get shed loads of wheel spin mid corner when on gentle throttle. it'll be a fun experiment at the end of the day.
come to think of it, the engine mods are gonna be a less than half the cost of all the other mods like coilovers, diff, tyres, pads, harnesses, seats, etc.
20-07-2011 | 05:58 PM
#134
standard heads flow well enough for around 350bhp, more with cams etc.
20-07-2011 | 06:15 PM
#135
Advanced PassionFord User
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,862
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From: Blackpool
i think so....how long it lasts, who knows.
On my Focus i wanted to-
Use stock engine, nothing touched- Free, in the car already
Use T3 turbo- £50-350
use ERST manifold- £60
use FRS injectors or similar-£160
Use stock inlet
Cheapo intercooler off fleabay- £100-150
and get Jamsport to map the standard ecu...estimate £450
It seems cheap and nasty, and it is...but that doesn't mean it won't work. I spoke to JS about the ECU and mapping, they have done it.
I was thinking of running between 5-10psi and seeing an easy 230bhp
Only thing that stopped me is my love for my other cars...and the fact i would need a clutch which would cost around half of my "pikey ZT" budget
On my Focus i wanted to-
Use stock engine, nothing touched- Free, in the car already
Use T3 turbo- £50-350
use ERST manifold- £60
use FRS injectors or similar-£160
Use stock inlet
Cheapo intercooler off fleabay- £100-150
and get Jamsport to map the standard ecu...estimate £450
It seems cheap and nasty, and it is...but that doesn't mean it won't work. I spoke to JS about the ECU and mapping, they have done it.
I was thinking of running between 5-10psi and seeing an easy 230bhp
Only thing that stopped me is my love for my other cars...and the fact i would need a clutch which would cost around half of my "pikey ZT" budget
i didnt think it was possible to remap the standard ecu??
Also a cheap manifold to use would be the standard focus item as thats whats used on the t190/230 isnt it??? just modify the flange.
20-07-2011 | 06:20 PM
#136
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From: in reality!!!!!!!!!!!
when i was still going fwd i was going to use the getrag st170 box , pretty strong and good ratios for top speed as standard.
cheers paul
20-07-2011 | 07:31 PM
#140
there really isn't a need to use an ST engine over a regular blacktop unless you're after squeezing every little bit out of an engine, and then you can take a blacktop head just as far if you wanted to.
standard heads flow well enough for around 350bhp, more with cams etc.
standard heads flow well enough for around 350bhp, more with cams etc.
And I've heard of standard cams doing 400+bhp!
Easy to adapt a late Zetec manifold to a turbo flange. Wouldn't use an RS turbo item; drilling and tapping them tends to make the head piss oil.
Yes, I've fitted a blacktop head to a silvertop but it isn't that easy. Ideally you need to weld up a core plug, machine it and drill and tap it so you can run the silvertop tensioner set up.
20-07-2011 | 07:44 PM
#142
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ive got a st170 focus and keep toying with the idea of getting it turbod just for a little extra power.how cheap do yous think this could be done?id be happy with around 230-250bhp but want it to be just as realible as it is just now while standard.
what would i all need and rough costs please.
thanks for any help
what would i all need and rough costs please.
thanks for any help
20-07-2011 | 07:55 PM
#143
ST170 would be a bit more expensive to turbo sadly.
I've heard the standard inlets can't take boost (rememeber Simon with the turbo ST170 saying they had a problem sucking the individual inlet gaskets through!) so you need a custom inlet really as the standard Zetec inlet doesn't match up.
Other than that same as other Zetec to turbo except the VVT might get complicated depending on how you want to go about it.
Then the clutch and flywheel gets expensive as it needs to be replaced too.
I've heard the standard inlets can't take boost (rememeber Simon with the turbo ST170 saying they had a problem sucking the individual inlet gaskets through!) so you need a custom inlet really as the standard Zetec inlet doesn't match up.
Other than that same as other Zetec to turbo except the VVT might get complicated depending on how you want to go about it.
Then the clutch and flywheel gets expensive as it needs to be replaced too.
20-07-2011 | 08:03 PM
#144
Waiting on my fast ford..
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From: East Ayrshire
I was referring to the bottom end rather than the full engine, but the head is usefull if you have it.
I suppose its easy to use the FRS inlet and exhaust manifolds on the ST170's if the VVT is blanked off, unless you have fancy ECU to run it.
The zetec turbo is easy to have cheap reliable fun, so many parts that you can use and mix and match. Mine is running standard con rods and wossner pistons with ARP rod bolts, standard FRS turbo hopefully going to run nearly 300bhp safely, depends on how hard you want to push it really.
I suppose its easy to use the FRS inlet and exhaust manifolds on the ST170's if the VVT is blanked off, unless you have fancy ECU to run it.
The zetec turbo is easy to have cheap reliable fun, so many parts that you can use and mix and match. Mine is running standard con rods and wossner pistons with ARP rod bolts, standard FRS turbo hopefully going to run nearly 300bhp safely, depends on how hard you want to push it really.
20-07-2011 | 08:16 PM
#145
As above the ST170 ports are in a different place to the normal Zetec engine, so the inlet manifolds do not fit. You can port some of them and modify the gasket too but it's not ideal, and you wouldn't be able to do that on the plastic inlet I don't think due to the individual gaskets.
20-07-2011 | 09:47 PM
#146
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20-07-2011 | 11:00 PM
#147
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From: birmingham
The "meat" of the Mk1 is a Powerworks kit, Omex600, Pro Alloy cooling and a custom exhaust manifold. First engine was lifted out of a mondeo with 57,000miles. I abused it sooooo hard, trying to break the engine and the gearbox to see what they took.
Engine £200. IB5 £125. The two main areas of "risk" in the car are cheap as chips and disposable, so i have much much more fun as i don't have to worry about smashing an expensive gearbox or wrecking a bottom end
After all those miles, launches, relentless bouncing off the 7k rev limit, hooliganism etc it started to breathe a bit heavy and would crunch going from 3rd to 4th if flat out and changing fast....seemed good value to me.
We pulled it out and all seemed mint, couldnt understand the slightly heavy breathing, but it wasn't worth any stress, just change it.
Now another cheap engine is in, bar ARP bolts and a Tran-X plated diff. Seems great, but if it breaks tomorrow, its no hardship....the car has had tons of money chucked at it, but as for building a snazzy bottom end, cams, headwork or whatever...in this application, is utterly pointless other than boasting. No gains. No interest in chasing figures which would probably make it slower other than when in 5th and making the car unreliable, undrivable and running hotter temps.
The turbo was built for track. So i went for a proper built bottom end. Started on stock head, cams etc....Now run the same bottom end, but changed for Cat Cams and valve springs, gained some torque and a few bhp running the same boost as before. Highest it ran was 343bhp, but that's only on 1.1 bar
My main thing is not spending money when you don't have too....so many projects never make the road or get broken because owners get wrapped up in spec and wanting other people to approve.
Fuck that! Get a car built, running, find out what's right and wrong with the car and then upgrade as you go.
It means the difference between having a car in the garage for 5 years looking awesome but needing money, or being out on the road or track enjoying it
Engine £200. IB5 £125. The two main areas of "risk" in the car are cheap as chips and disposable, so i have much much more fun as i don't have to worry about smashing an expensive gearbox or wrecking a bottom end
After all those miles, launches, relentless bouncing off the 7k rev limit, hooliganism etc it started to breathe a bit heavy and would crunch going from 3rd to 4th if flat out and changing fast....seemed good value to me.
We pulled it out and all seemed mint, couldnt understand the slightly heavy breathing, but it wasn't worth any stress, just change it.
Now another cheap engine is in, bar ARP bolts and a Tran-X plated diff. Seems great, but if it breaks tomorrow, its no hardship....the car has had tons of money chucked at it, but as for building a snazzy bottom end, cams, headwork or whatever...in this application, is utterly pointless other than boasting. No gains. No interest in chasing figures which would probably make it slower other than when in 5th and making the car unreliable, undrivable and running hotter temps.
The turbo was built for track. So i went for a proper built bottom end. Started on stock head, cams etc....Now run the same bottom end, but changed for Cat Cams and valve springs, gained some torque and a few bhp running the same boost as before. Highest it ran was 343bhp, but that's only on 1.1 bar
My main thing is not spending money when you don't have too....so many projects never make the road or get broken because owners get wrapped up in spec and wanting other people to approve.
Fuck that! Get a car built, running, find out what's right and wrong with the car and then upgrade as you go.
It means the difference between having a car in the garage for 5 years looking awesome but needing money, or being out on the road or track enjoying it
21-07-2011 | 08:29 AM
#148
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yeah, from own experience, it seems that sensible boost and sensible revs you can get away with it. Some do, some don't. That's the lottery of doing it cheap, but if you try it and suffer valve bounce, it's not like it cost you money to find out.
Woolford- Yep. When i did my first shopping list, i noted the FRS exhaust manifold as the first choice, they are cheap and direct fit. And, all the JS supercharged Fiesta's use stock ECU's.
Woolford- Yep. When i did my first shopping list, i noted the FRS exhaust manifold as the first choice, they are cheap and direct fit. And, all the JS supercharged Fiesta's use stock ECU's.
21-07-2011 | 02:33 PM
#149
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I love your fiesta neil its mental! it did make me laugh when you said £200 engine as a consumable but as i carried on reading its very true, seems a better way of doing things, will you be out on track and the 0 to 60 strip with it?
21-07-2011 | 03:51 PM
#150
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After years and years of spunking money into good spec engines and them still wiping out, i went another way with the Mk1.
It's so tempting to track it, but it has no cage and if it bites, it will hurt, so i try not to track the Mk1, it kills me though.
The turbo should be out. But while that started off as a sensible budget build, it has now evolved into a decent spec ZT.
Pistons, road, ARP bolts, stud n nut kit, 3 angle valve seats, cat cams and valve springs waffle waffle...turbo should be on track. It's where it belongs. Mk1 is just mainly for posing and shitting old ladies up lol
It's so tempting to track it, but it has no cage and if it bites, it will hurt, so i try not to track the Mk1, it kills me though.
The turbo should be out. But while that started off as a sensible budget build, it has now evolved into a decent spec ZT.
Pistons, road, ARP bolts, stud n nut kit, 3 angle valve seats, cat cams and valve springs waffle waffle...turbo should be on track. It's where it belongs. Mk1 is just mainly for posing and shitting old ladies up lol
24-07-2011 | 11:47 AM
#151
bc box mate , first one smashed every tooth off the main shaft and pinion , second machined the main shaft in half , third stripped teeth off thrid gear , and finally smashed my ap £500 clutch plate in half which is when i decided to go for more power lol
when i was still going fwd i was going to use the getrag st170 box , pretty strong and good ratios for top speed as standard.
cheers paul
when i was still going fwd i was going to use the getrag st170 box , pretty strong and good ratios for top speed as standard.
cheers paul
So you wouldn't recommend the BC box then haha
For your original spec, would you get away with a ib5 plus quaife diff ?
02-08-2011 | 03:30 PM
#153
Thread Starter
Ben
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,853
Likes: 55
From: Peterborough
It's a bit off topic but I'm thinking of just sticking an rs turbo lump in now as Im getting sick of the wiring, I haven't a clue what goes where as I bought the car with the engine in place and half the wiring done, no idea what loom is in it, no idea what half the connectors are that are hanging around! The guy I bought it off was wiring in Megajolt which looks half done, but I'm really clueless with it. Can anyone shed some list please? Would I be better off getting a new 2.0ltr loom and ecu and starting from scratch and ditch the aftermarket ecu, or even could someone make me one up for what I need? Obviously I'll send a few beers your way In return
Ben.
Ben.
03-08-2011 | 02:08 PM
#156
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From: West Wales
Sorry to drag up an old thread but I was just thinking how does the cost of building a budget zetec turbo compare with a 200/220bhp rs turbo engine, assuming both engines need to be purchased first? And which would be more reliable? I've got to stop looking at this thread cause I keep getting ideas I cant really afford (but would love to try).
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