As title realy,

I have changed the Ignition amp, ( cheers Steve@RSX ), and have gone through the weber marelli breaker point chart, checking all the ind values the ECU is sending and recieving from the sensors, and still i have no spark, The coil is getting power, ( have put direct power to it through a fused 30amp relay, using the old +feed to the coil to switch it).

The phase sensor is working, as i get values to the multimeter through the ecu that are within the specified parameters, the crank sensor is working as the fuel pump runs and primes. what else is there that i could check, or what have i missed.

Cheers
scott

 

Scott Have you checked the readings from the crank sensor m8 ????


The crank sensor does'nt on all cars always controll the fuel pump the pump will prime automatically on power up of the ignition
Check what your voltage is to the crank sensor and then check the ohms reading from the sensor m8

Im quite sure you should have an ohms reading of 3.5 ohms max from the sensor


hope this helps
Regards Doug

 

Cheers mate, but as far as i was aware tyhe crank sensor didnt control when the spark comes in, i know it tells the ECU the position of the piston, but i thought it was the Phase sensor that controls the Spark??? as this is set to TDC the same as the CAS??

Thanks for that info though mate, keep it coming

 

do the injectors fire Scott? If the pump is running whilst the engine is turning, then fair to say the crank sensor is ok..
Is theMAP sensor connected OK? if not the injectors won't fire (hence my question) and quite possibly not spark either..
What ECU are you using? wiring loom?

 

can you elaborate on the timing of the phase sensor? your post above suggests it is set to TDC - The phase sensor signal needs to occur approximately midway between the TDC and 90 degree signal from the crank for the first lobe, and between 270 degree signal and TDC for the second lobe.

 

Scott have you checked the position and air gap setting of the phase sensor to make sure its not to far away from the pick up in the dizzy as this would have dire consiquensis thus no spark if its got no magnetic pulse ????

 

As rich says .......

and as he also says check for a pulse @ the injectors with a noyd light or test light

 

Yes the injectors fire, and the phase sensor isnt set at TDC, its approx 5-6mm before it, ( the first lobe on the shaft is 5-6mm away from the phase sensor), and it is set to .30.

The ECU is the L6 from a 2wd cossie, as is the engine loom, the map sensor is a new 3bar, and its connected.

 

so when the first lobe of the phase sensor lines up with the sensor head, the crank is past TDC then yeah? ie between the TDC peg and the 90 degree peg?

Are you certain that the phase sensor signal actually gets to the ECU OK? On L6 ECU, I'm pretty sure there will be no spark if the phase sensor signal isn't present (L8 will still run without phase sensor). You say in the first post that you get right values on the multimeter - is that voltage readings when the engine is turning, or static resistance measurements? Do you have access to an oscilloscope to view signal waveforms?

 

No mate dont have access to an oscilloscope,

and yes i do mean that when the phase is lined up on the first lobe it is roughly halfway betwen pegs on the crank sensor, And i am taking voltage readings when the engine is cranked, for the crank and phase sensor, other sensors like map, tps, air, water, ignition amp, are taken from static ignition on.

Up till today i wasnt getting any return signal from the ignition amp, but swapped it for another and i get the reguired max.25 signal back at the ECU.

 

OK, clear now - seems like you have checked all the obvious stuff...
Try looking at the ignition amp trigger signal voltage with a multimeter when you crank the engine - pin25 on the ECU and pin6 on the ignition module. You should be able to see the trigger signal turning on and off at cranking speed.
ECU Pin 24 (to ignition module pin 3) should be essentially ground, although you are likely to see a small voltage, less than 0.5V that may well fluctuate a bit when the engine is cranking/running - this is the trigger signal negative reference.
The ECU essentially links pins 25 and 24 (and hence the ignition module pins 6 and 3) with a transistor switch to fire the module and coil.
Presumably you have checked that there is a good earth connection from pin2 of the module (brown wire probably disappears into the loom) and a live feed to pin4 (the same live feed as coil +ve)?

 

Interesting one..

Tell me... what happened before the car stopped? Any work done on the engine?

Was it running?

VERY importantly, have you checked the crank pulley DEFINATELY still has 4 lugs on it?

 

Stu,

The car has had a Cosworth management conversion mate.

It's a Series 1. Never run since as far as I'm aware.....

 

Hmm....
Why didnt someone mention this minor point?

Or did i somehow miss it?

 

LOL.. I knew from other threads Stu, kinda didn't think to mention..

 

I love threads like this .... you (I) learn so much

richm It reads like you have forgotten MORE than I know

Still Im watching and learning - just really sorry that I cant offer any useful input other than the bleeding obvious ones like is the block earthed etc? I have access to an oscilloscope - but its annoying when people dont put their location in the profile because you could in theory be living in the same street as me

Keep at it guys

Tony

 

Tony... sorry but i reallllyyy cant help myself....

Location in YOUR profile is:

"Who ate all the COOKIES ?"

Fookin quality

Cap in Yo Ass

 

apmsl @ Stu & Tony... total classic !!

 

Who changed that then ....

Someone has access to my username

HANG ON.. Where has that bloody picture come from too ??

MUPPETS - just sums me up really

 

Rich, i have checked the earths,( first thing i done)
The trigger signal is getting to the ecu, was second thing i checked

All the pins on the Ignition amp are correct, ie the earth works i have +ve @pin 4

Hence my frustration at not sorting the problem as nearly all the obvious, and some of the not so obvious stuff i have checked.

Stu, sorry for not clearly spelling out that its on a S1, and that its not ran since changing over to it as i cant get a spark!!!

the crank pulley still has the four lugs attached

 

OK, clutching at straws now...
Are we assuming the ECU is OK, or has that been independently checked? Maybe worth trying it on a working system?

Just to recap - the fuel pump runs when the engine is turning, and the injectors are firing.. so the crank sensor is OK..

**STU - on L6 is the phase sensor signal also required to be OK to be getting injector signals??**

Both ECU pins 1 and 19 got good ground connection?
Presumably pin 20 has 12V supply or nothing would work...

just kinda thinking aloud here...

 

Yep, pin 20 is +12v, 1 & 19 have good earths.
The ECU came off a running car, as did the loom.

The fuel pump runs when cranking and re primes when you stop. The injectors are also firing.

Its got to be something stupid and easy that i am overlooking, going to check all the connections in the ECU later this afternoon, just in case any are dirty!!! ( well we are clutching at straws now)

Cheers for your help lads, anymore info, or things to check?????

 

Daft question.....

Plugs, leads including coil lead, cap, rotor arm and coil.....are they in mint working condition.....is the rotorarm turning on the shaft? I had a car once where the rotor arm not secure on the shaft and was doing what it wanted.....

Has the coil lead gone high resistance?

 

As far as i can tell, all are working 100%
i am going to check the whole system again tonight, then see what happens

 

Ok, thats it, i have gone through the WHOLE system more times now than i care to think of, and still nothing.

Its all gonna come out now, shame as it means that i have to strip the car down again, but this time when i put it back together i am going to use a modern engine management system and not some w@nky old cossie stuff .

Bit pissed off really as its only the lack of spark that is stopping me finishing the car. I should have just got something like Autronic or Omex first. Would have saved loads of hassle.

Live & learn

 

Really sad to see it's come to that Scott... it seems you've done all the hard work! once it's sorted, and like you, i think it must be something daft, that 'w@nky old cossie stuff' will work just fine...
I'll try and think what else it could be...

 

I must say that I am at a slight loss as to why it won't run either...

 

I have just had enough of it now, its been off the road for over a year, having bodywork and other mods doing to it, and to get this far and be stopped by a problem that has no answer, is just crap
If i dont start to get it going soon i will end up either selling the car as is, or scrapping it!!!
Just fed up of having the car sat eating money and going nowhere.
I shouldnt have bothered doing what i have done, i should have sold it on ages ago and bought a different car, probably a GTI-R or EVO. Had enough of the manky ford crap, think i might try some of the manky japan crap instead

 

if you've gone this far and spent this much , then why not spend a little more and get a local professional auto electrician to sort it out .havea look in your yellow pages or the local paper,gotta be cheaper in the long run, good luck. puddy.

 

Have tried mate, no luck.

They only done everything that i have allready done, still no joy

 

unfortunately, an auto electrician isn't going to be much help IMO, unless an expert in this particular system..

 

Scott....

Have you got a spark out of the coil at all?

 

Daz,
Nope nothing out of the coil, i have power going in, but it still seems as if if its not being switched.
The ignition amp is working, phase is working, crank is working, 3 bar is new and also working, The injectors all spray, and the fuel pump runs and primes???

I have tried the coil on another car and that works fine, as do the leads and plugs.

 

r u using a hydrid dizzy, if so has the phase sensor been turned round as the dizzy rotates the opposite way to a cossie on a cvh.

 

If the amp is working on the car but the coil is not being switched then there must be a break in the wire from the coil negative to the ignition amp....

Have you checked the continuety on the green (should be green) wire?

 

Ian, yes its all as it should, I had the shaft specially made, it turns the CVH way(anticlockwise) and the lugged bit has the arrow pointing the same way.

 

yeah, following on from Daz's question - the things that are going to stop sparks:

1, bad coil
2, bad ignition module (but you already changed that..)
3, no trigger signal between pin 3 and 6 on the ignition module

If it hasn't been tried already - test the ignition module and coil etc :
Unplug the ECU to isolate the ignition module signals
Apply power to the coil and ignition module, either by switching on ignition or applying 12V directly to coil+ and ignition module if neccessary, depending on your wiring.
Backprobe the ignition module connector to pins 3 and 6 - dabbing a link across pins 3 and 6 should make the coil fire manually..

If this works, then presumably it means the trigger signal doesn't get to the ign module from the ECU - either connection problem from pins 24/25 or ECU problem..? Could try the same test by linking pins 24 and 25 on the ECU plug, to test the wire connection integrity from 24/25 to 3/6 on the module......
If the crank and phase sensor are working, there's no reason why it shouldn't though...

 

Following on from Richards post, Scott...If you take the earth wire (green) off the coil negative and then briefly earth the coil negative out then it should fire a spark.....that would eliminate anything there....

Reconnect the coil negative wire and earth it out briefly at the ignition module end. It should fire again. If not then you either have high resistance in the wiring or a brak in that wire....

 

top for this chap as i find this very interesting reading and hope he sorts it soon.

 

Sorry i havent had a chance to get out to the car to try what has been suggested above, weather pending (pissing down with rain here at the mo), i will try and have a look tommorrow