The RST in performance Ford mag this month
11-05-2005, 04:11 PM
#122
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I too read the article in Performance Ford and I am amazed at the power figure that it achieved.
Ive had various RST's over the years and always struggled to get over 200bhp on a standard turbo and surely others will say the same?
I dont think the majority of people on here doubt that that engine could make 258bhp but at only 17psi? And on a standard turbo?? Surely Not?? It must need a load more boost and a much bigger turbo surely?
People are saying that jamsport do stuff differently, so thats why? - so what is so different about this head, cam, and standard turbo that is so different to justify this power??
Cause if there is then I wouldnt bother wasting my money on pistons, hybrids, rods, management etc when 258bhp is clearly gainable on a standard bottom end, turbo and KE management with a nice reliable 17 psi!!!
Ive had various RST's over the years and always struggled to get over 200bhp on a standard turbo and surely others will say the same?
I dont think the majority of people on here doubt that that engine could make 258bhp but at only 17psi? And on a standard turbo?? Surely Not?? It must need a load more boost and a much bigger turbo surely?
People are saying that jamsport do stuff differently, so thats why? - so what is so different about this head, cam, and standard turbo that is so different to justify this power??
Cause if there is then I wouldnt bother wasting my money on pistons, hybrids, rods, management etc when 258bhp is clearly gainable on a standard bottom end, turbo and KE management with a nice reliable 17 psi!!!
11-05-2005, 04:23 PM
#124
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It made what it made at the end of the day.
It amazed us too, but it did what it did and the mag were happy with it and we did run after run and the same power was achieved.
Our rollers are callibrated every 6 weeks to keep accuracy so that wasnt an option.
The head and manifold had some extensive work on it and thats what has made the power.
We will obviously do the same to all our heads from now on as this was simply a test idea.
It amazed us too, but it did what it did and the mag were happy with it and we did run after run and the same power was achieved.
Our rollers are callibrated every 6 weeks to keep accuracy so that wasnt an option.
The head and manifold had some extensive work on it and thats what has made the power.
We will obviously do the same to all our heads from now on as this was simply a test idea.
11-05-2005, 04:26 PM
#125
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Originally Posted by Keith B
Yeah Jamsport have a huge reputation. I hear Pro-Drive go to them for advice 
He and Jamie designed and hand made our new exhaust, turbo dampers, exhaust manifold, suspension arms, hubs etc from scratch.....
Plus lots of other trick parts you will see at GT Battle.
The only standard part on our new car is the windscreen...LOL
So dont give me that reputation crap..........
Where do you think all the WRC ideas came from ????
11-05-2005, 04:39 PM
#127
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Originally Posted by JAMSPORT DAN
Originally Posted by Keith B
Yeah Jamsport have a huge reputation. I hear Pro-Drive go to them for advice
Not getting involved, but that was a good answer
11-05-2005, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith B
Yeah Jamsport have a huge reputation. I hear Pro-Drive go to them for advice
My god, There's always one
11-05-2005, 04:44 PM
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It appears that the car made what it made.
I totally agree with a post that was made earlier in the fact that performance Ford surely now what they are on a bout and would not print crap figures and they like to test and prove increases which is the whole point of there feature.
People seem a little quick to judge and say words like "impossible" and "exagerated" and "rollers inaccurate".
I think some people need to take a step back and accept that things happen and to just take the information in rather than criticise INSTANTLY.
Surely jamsport have seen enough rs turbos in there time to now know what ways to make power and what ways not to make power.
just my view.
I totally agree with a post that was made earlier in the fact that performance Ford surely now what they are on a bout and would not print crap figures and they like to test and prove increases which is the whole point of there feature.
People seem a little quick to judge and say words like "impossible" and "exagerated" and "rollers inaccurate".
I think some people need to take a step back and accept that things happen and to just take the information in rather than criticise INSTANTLY.
Surely jamsport have seen enough rs turbos in there time to now know what ways to make power and what ways not to make power.
just my view.
11-05-2005, 04:54 PM
#131
Dan not getting involved in whos right etc but my m8 had lee billings old car had graphs for 280 bhp etc from you and only made 230 on nobles rollers not sayin yours reads wrong maybe theres reads low ,but things are not always what they seem to be, with the power you got from the mods on the car in PF it should run 13 sec 1/4s yes?
We will see.
We will see.
11-05-2005, 04:57 PM
#132
We KNEW this post was gonna come - we were waiting for it.
Here are the facts:
We've always run the car on Jamsports rollers since it was unchipped / standard. So all the results for this car every month as it goes further are RELATIVE.
After every mod we've rolling roaded the car at Jamsports rollers.
This time, the power outputs we got were beyond any of ours of Jamsports preconceptions.
So the car was rolling roaded again... it made the same power (give or take a bhp or two).
So the car was rolling roaded........again....... again, it made the same power (give or take 1 or 2 bhp).
Now, PF are in my eyes the MOST HONEST, UNBIASED mag you can buy when it comes to product tests, rolling roads etc (well, anything really)..... and we ALWAYS SPEAK AS WE FIND. So, what should we have done? Doctor the results and put a more 'realistic' or 'believable' figure in? Er, no... we put in what the car made, simple as that, and we KNEW we were gonna get shot down but our INTEGRITY was we'd rather get shot down for printing what happened than monkey around with the results to please people who weren't there to see the car being rolling roaded. End of!
Ben
Here are the facts:
We've always run the car on Jamsports rollers since it was unchipped / standard. So all the results for this car every month as it goes further are RELATIVE.
After every mod we've rolling roaded the car at Jamsports rollers.
This time, the power outputs we got were beyond any of ours of Jamsports preconceptions.
So the car was rolling roaded again... it made the same power (give or take a bhp or two).
So the car was rolling roaded........again....... again, it made the same power (give or take 1 or 2 bhp).
Now, PF are in my eyes the MOST HONEST, UNBIASED mag you can buy when it comes to product tests, rolling roads etc (well, anything really)..... and we ALWAYS SPEAK AS WE FIND. So, what should we have done? Doctor the results and put a more 'realistic' or 'believable' figure in? Er, no... we put in what the car made, simple as that, and we KNEW we were gonna get shot down but our INTEGRITY was we'd rather get shot down for printing what happened than monkey around with the results to please people who weren't there to see the car being rolling roaded. End of!
Ben
11-05-2005, 05:09 PM
#134
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Originally Posted by Tim
Dan not getting involved in whos right etc but my m8 had lee billings old car had graphs for 280 bhp etc from you and only made 230 on nobles rollers not sayin yours reads wrong maybe theres reads low ,but things are not always what they seem to be, with the power you got from the mods on the car in PF it should run 13 sec 1/4s yes?
We will see.
We will see.
The feller was a "repair myself" guy and didnt bring back to us.
From what I gather, the headgasket went, so the head was skimmed changing the compression and the wrong headgasket was used and he messed about with the car before selling to your mate.
The car as it sits now is not how it was when here.
Thats why its 50 bhp down.
When lee had it, it was serious, jamie even said it would give him a run for his money 4 years ago in his Q plate and that is saying something.
There is always a story behind things, like I said, some people wear blinkers and see nothing but what they want to see.
11-05-2005, 05:11 PM
#135
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Originally Posted by PF Ben
We KNEW this post was gonna come - we were waiting for it.
Here are the facts:
We've always run the car on Jamsports rollers since it was unchipped / standard. So all the results for this car every month as it goes further are RELATIVE.
After every mod we've rolling roaded the car at Jamsports rollers.
This time, the power outputs we got were beyond any of ours of Jamsports preconceptions.
So the car was rolling roaded again... it made the same power (give or take a bhp or two).
So the car was rolling roaded........again....... again, it made the same power (give or take 1 or 2 bhp).
Now, PF are in my eyes the MOST HONEST, UNBIASED mag you can buy when it comes to product tests, rolling roads etc (well, anything really)..... and we ALWAYS SPEAK AS WE FIND. So, what should we have done? Doctor the results and put a more 'realistic' or 'believable' figure in? Er, no... we put in what the car made, simple as that, and we KNEW we were gonna get shot down but our INTEGRITY was we'd rather get shot down for printing what happened than monkey around with the results to please people who weren't there to see the car being rolling roaded. End of!
Ben
Here are the facts:
We've always run the car on Jamsports rollers since it was unchipped / standard. So all the results for this car every month as it goes further are RELATIVE.
After every mod we've rolling roaded the car at Jamsports rollers.
This time, the power outputs we got were beyond any of ours of Jamsports preconceptions.
So the car was rolling roaded again... it made the same power (give or take a bhp or two).
So the car was rolling roaded........again....... again, it made the same power (give or take 1 or 2 bhp).
Now, PF are in my eyes the MOST HONEST, UNBIASED mag you can buy when it comes to product tests, rolling roads etc (well, anything really)..... and we ALWAYS SPEAK AS WE FIND. So, what should we have done? Doctor the results and put a more 'realistic' or 'believable' figure in? Er, no... we put in what the car made, simple as that, and we KNEW we were gonna get shot down but our INTEGRITY was we'd rather get shot down for printing what happened than monkey around with the results to please people who weren't there to see the car being rolling roaded. End of!
Ben
None of us need the blood pressure.....ha ha ha
11-05-2005, 05:25 PM
#136
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A guy I used to hang about with spent a fortune with power + having loads of stuff done, I took him out in my car that had been tuned and set up properly and he was gobsmacked at the difference and my conversion was about a Ł1000 less.
The point is, it's not about how much money you spend, it's about getting the right things for the money.
We see this all the time on the rolling road shoot outs in the mags, there are 10 cars all with different things done, but sometimes the car with very little done makes the best or nearly best power
I think everyone needs to be careful writing stuff off and being negative as it does not help to have the attitude that we do it this way cos we always have, people need to challenge everything in terms of how to do stuff.
I read an article about Andy Rouse where he talked about the 3 door cars he used to race with 600 and 700 bhp, and he said that now they can get the same car to lap quicker with 375 bhp because they didnt just accept the way it was, they always pushed for improvments and that leads to doing things differently.
Just my opinion, and for those who don't want to accept new ways then best you go back and pop your head in the sand and let the world pass you by.
Rich
The point is, it's not about how much money you spend, it's about getting the right things for the money.
We see this all the time on the rolling road shoot outs in the mags, there are 10 cars all with different things done, but sometimes the car with very little done makes the best or nearly best power
I think everyone needs to be careful writing stuff off and being negative as it does not help to have the attitude that we do it this way cos we always have, people need to challenge everything in terms of how to do stuff.
I read an article about Andy Rouse where he talked about the 3 door cars he used to race with 600 and 700 bhp, and he said that now they can get the same car to lap quicker with 375 bhp because they didnt just accept the way it was, they always pushed for improvments and that leads to doing things differently.
Just my opinion, and for those who don't want to accept new ways then best you go back and pop your head in the sand and let the world pass you by.
Rich
11-05-2005, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim
Dan not getting involved in whos right etc but my m8 had lee billings old car had graphs for 280 bhp etc from you and only made 230 on nobles rollers not sayin yours reads wrong maybe theres reads low ,but things are not always what they seem to be, with the power you got from the mods on the car in PF it should run 13 sec 1/4s yes?
We will see.
We will see.
I can't see any reason why the car wont run a 13sec 1/4, but to be honest the MPH is what you want to look at regarding a power comparison,
As for Nobles reading low for power runs, nobody believed my car made 346bhp at 17.5psi held on a T34 but most disbelievers were there and saw it happen but assumed I was running 24+psi like they were to makle that power.
Its all about back to basics, build a good engine then add boost.
Anyway I'm getting out of here before the shit hits the fan again.
11-05-2005, 06:05 PM
#139
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Hi every1 am new on this forum just wanted to put a reply up
Ive just recently sold my S2 rs and im really missing the boost
But my car was worked on by jamie at jamsport and it made 214bhp/229lb torque
which i was over the moon about. All the mods on it were
Stage2 chip
Cossie actuater
Pro-alloy intercooler
pipercross induction kit
full magnex inc downpipe
All this from a standard head,bottom end and turbo running 17psi with mfi
Even jamie turned round and was suprised. The thing ive noticed on here is alot of, well if my car cant do it why should somone elses. Bit sad to see that really as we all have spent quite alot of money on are cars and maybe its just down to the car and how they react to tuning.
nice1 matt.
Ive just recently sold my S2 rs and im really missing the boost
But my car was worked on by jamie at jamsport and it made 214bhp/229lb torque
which i was over the moon about. All the mods on it were
Stage2 chip
Cossie actuater
Pro-alloy intercooler
pipercross induction kit
full magnex inc downpipe
All this from a standard head,bottom end and turbo running 17psi with mfi
Even jamie turned round and was suprised. The thing ive noticed on here is alot of, well if my car cant do it why should somone elses. Bit sad to see that really as we all have spent quite alot of money on are cars and maybe its just down to the car and how they react to tuning.
nice1 matt.
11-05-2005, 06:18 PM
#140
Same old same old chaps....
I recall a very similar topic some years ago about Mr RW's car and how it could never be fast with 13psi and 150,000miles on a std bottom end until a few folk tried to race it..... roflol
I have a vid somewhere of the old girl, went bloody well indeed, very impressive.. RIP Frankie!
I recall a very similar topic some years ago about Mr RW's car and how it could never be fast with 13psi and 150,000miles on a std bottom end until a few folk tried to race it..... roflol
I have a vid somewhere of the old girl, went bloody well indeed, very impressive.. RIP Frankie!
11-05-2005, 06:25 PM
#141
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"Funny you should say that, our design and fabrication guy, chris., worked for Pro Drive for 7 years. "
LOL! Yeah that was a good repost! touche!
LOL! Yeah that was a good repost! touche!
11-05-2005, 06:32 PM
#142
Im not on the Bandwagon of people that are blaming the Rollers. But I cannot get my head round the HUGE deviation from what is considered 'Normal'.
At the end of the day, tuning an engine is based around a simple fundamental concept. Getting Air into the engine, processing it and getting it out again. There is only so far you can port a head and only so much you can do with tuning MFi. There are no miracles available.
If you make everything as free flowing as possible and use a big turbo, you will produce BHP, but Torque won't be great. If you then add a restriction, the Torque will be improved but at the expense of flow and consequently BHP.
If you take the same free flowing system and use a small turbo, it will be like blowing down a Toilet Roll tube. There just won't be any 'Grunt'. So, that engine might produce comparably good BHP (compared to the same set-up, but not so free flowing), but shit Torque.
Keep everything standard in terms of Port/Valve/Exhaust size and bolt a bigger turbo on and you will get fantastic Torque, but it will not e able to process the air higher up the rev range.
My point is that there is a basic rule and the logic just doesn't fit. As I said earlier, if this were a Cossie thread, then it would be 20 pages by now and FAR FAR harsher than this.
No-one up until now has been even CLOSE to 250bhp with a Standard Comp T3'd 1600CVH at under 20psi. Infact, if as an experiment, I was going to take a known (i.e. Rebuilt) standard Spec engine as far as possible on a T3, then I would bet money on it not passing 220bhp.
Where's Karl when ya need him!!
Dan/Jamie/Nick/Ben - I want to separate myself from all those that are slating you. I am merely trying to understand. My car made 267bhp at 28psi, using a Stage 3 T3, Stage 3 Head, Low Comp Engine, running MFi with no 5th Injector and that was considered outrageous. But here we are contemplating a car that has made 9bhp less on 11psi less boost.
That car ought (at the very least) to pass 150mph at Brunters and do a low 6 second 0-60 and a low 14 second 1/4 mile with a Terminal Speed of over 100mph (as long as I'm not the one driving it ). I guess that will be the proof that this car really has broken the mould.
At the end of the day, tuning an engine is based around a simple fundamental concept. Getting Air into the engine, processing it and getting it out again. There is only so far you can port a head and only so much you can do with tuning MFi. There are no miracles available.
If you make everything as free flowing as possible and use a big turbo, you will produce BHP, but Torque won't be great. If you then add a restriction, the Torque will be improved but at the expense of flow and consequently BHP.
If you take the same free flowing system and use a small turbo, it will be like blowing down a Toilet Roll tube. There just won't be any 'Grunt'. So, that engine might produce comparably good BHP (compared to the same set-up, but not so free flowing), but shit Torque.
Keep everything standard in terms of Port/Valve/Exhaust size and bolt a bigger turbo on and you will get fantastic Torque, but it will not e able to process the air higher up the rev range.
My point is that there is a basic rule and the logic just doesn't fit. As I said earlier, if this were a Cossie thread, then it would be 20 pages by now and FAR FAR harsher than this.
No-one up until now has been even CLOSE to 250bhp with a Standard Comp T3'd 1600CVH at under 20psi. Infact, if as an experiment, I was going to take a known (i.e. Rebuilt) standard Spec engine as far as possible on a T3, then I would bet money on it not passing 220bhp.
Where's Karl when ya need him!!
Dan/Jamie/Nick/Ben - I want to separate myself from all those that are slating you. I am merely trying to understand. My car made 267bhp at 28psi, using a Stage 3 T3, Stage 3 Head, Low Comp Engine, running MFi with no 5th Injector and that was considered outrageous. But here we are contemplating a car that has made 9bhp less on 11psi less boost.
That car ought (at the very least) to pass 150mph at Brunters and do a low 6 second 0-60 and a low 14 second 1/4 mile with a Terminal Speed of over 100mph (as long as I'm not the one driving it
). I guess that will be the proof that this car really has broken the mould.
11-05-2005, 06:33 PM
#143
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I agree that the results are relative with what it achieved when first put on the rollers but you cant blame us for asking the questions can you??
For years weve all been told the limits of this and the limits of that - and all by various well known tuners.
So when something comes along and makes very high figures like this then we are going to ask why?? And people say it not about having the all the stuff but the right stuff is a bit bollocks in my opinion. Weve been asking what the right parts from tuners for years and still we dont get anywhere near these figures as were told we need this part and that part - so what have the tuners been selling us all these years then?!
And its not like cylinder head porting of CVHs is new is it? And its on standard valve sizes aswell!
Will be interested to see what times this car gets or more more the terminal speed.
For years weve all been told the limits of this and the limits of that - and all by various well known tuners.
So when something comes along and makes very high figures like this then we are going to ask why?? And people say it not about having the all the stuff but the right stuff is a bit bollocks in my opinion. Weve been asking what the right parts from tuners for years and still we dont get anywhere near these figures as were told we need this part and that part - so what have the tuners been selling us all these years then?!
And its not like cylinder head porting of CVHs is new is it? And its on standard valve sizes aswell!
Will be interested to see what times this car gets or more more the terminal speed.
11-05-2005, 06:56 PM
#144
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Didnt steve rw`s car acheive 149.9mph at brunters with 200@wheels whats that about 230@flywheel. Yet other cars of the time could only manage a couple of mph more with Ł1000`s spent and loads more power apparently. I remember going back to the old rsbb days loads of peeps talking a great game but "frankie" turned up done the business and drove home. If I recall, it was leading at totb 1 until the fateful moment against cars with a lot more claimed bhp.
Does anyone know 100% this was a standard turbo on the jamsport tuned car?
Does anyone know 100% this was a standard turbo on the jamsport tuned car?
11-05-2005, 06:57 PM
#146
Originally Posted by JAMSPORT DAN
Originally Posted by Tim
Dan not getting involved in whos right etc but my m8 had lee billings old car had graphs for 280 bhp etc from you and only made 230 on nobles rollers not sayin yours reads wrong maybe theres reads low ,but things are not always what they seem to be, with the power you got from the mods on the car in PF it should run 13 sec 1/4s yes?
We will see.
We will see.
The feller was a "repair myself" guy and didnt bring back to us.
From what I gather, the headgasket went, so the head was skimmed changing the compression and the wrong headgasket was used and he messed about with the car before selling to your mate.
The car as it sits now is not how it was when here.
Thats why its 50 bhp down.
When lee had it, it was serious, jamie even said it would give him a run for his money 4 years ago in his Q plate and that is saying something.
There is always a story behind things, like I said, some people wear blinkers and see nothing but what they want to see.
Sorry lad but your totally wrong my friend Tim got the car from lee,never had a head gasket problem and even rang you when it was down on power,told me jamie told him to bring it down as the map wasnt finished.
Just to put you straight, has nothin to do with this post but u r wrong
nothin to with wearing blinkers at all.
Anyways if thats what its done i look forward to a blast against it sometime or a spin round the block,or track.
11-05-2005, 07:43 PM
#147
Here you go, shows what a pretty lightly modded RST can do. A credit to the original tuners, AVA.
I can assure everyone that she was running 13psi in this video as it had just been tuned by me literally hours previous. The owner was late for a hairdressing appointment i believe, so forgive him hitting the limiter occasionally.. (Hi Dave )
http://www.motorsport-developments.c...0cvh220bhp.avi
Great engine, shame about the car it was bolted into
I can assure everyone that she was running 13psi in this video as it had just been tuned by me literally hours previous. The owner was late for a hairdressing appointment i believe, so forgive him hitting the limiter occasionally.. (Hi Dave
)http://www.motorsport-developments.c...0cvh220bhp.avi
Great engine, shame about the car it was bolted into
11-05-2005, 08:04 PM
#150
Legend
FOOKIN ELL that vids wicked
I remember speaking to the guy from PF just when he bought the car and he was saying it made great power figures with mild mods to start with like Lewis said, some engines just do, there's no real rhyme or reason look at F1 cars that are completely precision engineered down to the last bolt, yet 2 cars are still never exactly the same and the number 1 driver ends up with the best one
what chance have shonky old fords got, when they couldn't even get all the mercury greys the same shade
that vids wicked I remember speaking to the guy from PF just when he bought the car and he was saying it made great power figures with mild mods to start with
like Lewis said, some engines just do, there's no real rhyme or reason look at F1 cars that are completely precision engineered down to the last bolt, yet 2 cars are still never exactly the same and the number 1 driver ends up with the best one what chance have shonky old fords got, when they couldn't even get all the mercury greys the same shade
11-05-2005, 09:06 PM
#153
agreed. I was to a bit sceptical about this. But if its in the mag and its all true etc, imagine being in Nicks shoes when evryone sees him at the th shows etc.
Nothing to gain out of lying is there?
http://www.pub-mania.co.uk/index.php?act=idx
Nothing to gain out of lying is there?
http://www.pub-mania.co.uk/index.php?act=idx
11-05-2005, 09:09 PM
#154
Professional Waffler
If it really has made those figures then fair fookin play is all I can say. It cost me a hell of a lot more to reach 250 
Nice one Nick and JamSport
Nice one Nick and JamSport
11-05-2005, 10:40 PM
#155
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Someone claims x-amount of BHP....
"no it aint!"
"yes it is!"
"no it aint!"
"I gotta graph from the rollers to prove it!"
"Rollers are a crap way of measuring power blah blah blah blah!"
Same sh!t diffirent day....dyno and 1/4 terminal / top speeds please...then we're talking......otherwise "who cares as it's all about who can be bothered to spend more time logged on the net typing replies trying to justify something that means nothing without proper proof.
"no it aint!"
"yes it is!"
"no it aint!"
"I gotta graph from the rollers to prove it!"
"Rollers are a crap way of measuring power blah blah blah blah!"
Same sh!t diffirent day....dyno and 1/4 terminal / top speeds please...then we're talking......otherwise "who cares as it's all about who can be bothered to spend more time logged on the net typing replies trying to justify something that means nothing without proper proof.
11-05-2005, 11:27 PM
#156
15K+ Super Poster!!
Frankie was a total weapon. It was a well bolted togehter, with a proper choice of mods. My own engine has is making similar power at 13psi, but that's going to be doubled soon so will be fun
11-05-2005, 11:29 PM
#157
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I agree with Sunny - creating controversey to sell magazines or drum up business (moi cynical?!) is one thing - lets see the proof. Mind you to be honest I'd prefer it if Karl stepped in to settle it.
11-05-2005, 11:31 PM
#158
15K+ Super Poster!!
Just watched the vid again - remeber it well, just before totb1 
Its funny - these things go round in circles - yes u can/no u cant.... Since then only Christians and Tims engines have really been worthy of any note - people that have done it before move on, and seem to take the knowledfe with them...
Its funny - these things go round in circles - yes u can/no u cant.... Since then only Christians and Tims engines have really been worthy of any note - people that have done it before move on, and seem to take the knowledfe with them...
11-05-2005, 11:34 PM
#159
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Deep in the underground
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Mind you to be honest I'd prefer it if Karl stepped in to settle it.
All ive seen from this thread is pretty much one thing.....
Mr X has paid mega bucks for his X BHP, and then Mr Y has got more than that with less cash, so therefore it instantly means it cannot be done, or is simply bullshit.
Just because one person can get a certain figure from a setup, there is nothing to say that someone else cannot get more from either the same or less.
Bottom line is this, it would be a fucking boring place/scene if everyone relied on doing things exactly the same way!
I await the day that people on here can understand the concept of these simple things and stop bitching like a bunch of primary school kids