Zetec oil pump failures - some actual definative FACTS please...
25-01-2011, 06:52 PM
#1
Zetec oil pump failures - some actual definative FACTS please...
Right, spent the last half hour or so searching and reading through all the threads on here regarding oil pumps.
I know there's much speculation, but after speaking to Dunnell, the Zetec tuning god recently, he told me has never had an oil pump fail on any engine he's built. Even the ones that have revved past 8,300rpm regularly. But then he never boosts them or takes them past 300bhp.
So on that info there's no direct corrolation in revs.
It seems to be revs AND turbo power that kills them, and the nose flexing on the cranks seems to make sense. The lightweight pulleys also seems to make it worse.
So, has anyone ACTUALLY ever seen or heard FIRST hand a Zetec let go at a rev limit lower than 7000rpm, regardless of power.
Is there a bullet proof plan in theory to making a big power Zetec? I.e. 400bhp at 7000rpm limit (if it makes it of course).
Worried about mine now!
I know there's much speculation, but after speaking to Dunnell, the Zetec tuning god recently, he told me has never had an oil pump fail on any engine he's built. Even the ones that have revved past 8,300rpm regularly. But then he never boosts them or takes them past 300bhp.
So on that info there's no direct corrolation in revs.
It seems to be revs AND turbo power that kills them, and the nose flexing on the cranks seems to make sense. The lightweight pulleys also seems to make it worse.
So, has anyone ACTUALLY ever seen or heard FIRST hand a Zetec let go at a rev limit lower than 7000rpm, regardless of power.
Is there a bullet proof plan in theory to making a big power Zetec? I.e. 400bhp at 7000rpm limit (if it makes it of course).
Worried about mine now!
Last edited by XRT_si; 25-01-2011 at 06:55 PM.
25-01-2011, 07:15 PM
#5
Zee Germans are coming
ian howell the real zetec tuning god who built me a engine told me its down to crank bounce/flex and its to much revs and boost combo that does it
dry sump is the only way farward
dry sump is the only way farward
25-01-2011, 07:17 PM
#6
PassionFord Post Whore!!
all the ones i have seen fail seem to have been fitted with light weight flywheels ! my engine has done over 25k with a rev limit of 7300rpm but has the standard flywheel . i also know paul j's engine has revved to over 8k over the years but that has also only ever have standard flywheels.
25-01-2011, 07:20 PM
#7
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the billet will not shatter like standard gears.the standard ones are very soft and very brittle...get a hold of some old gears and have a play...they really are shite.
the only guaranteed fix is a dry sump setup.....as long as it doesnt throw/snap a belt like dorans citroen at autosport last year...ouch!!!! other option is a crank damper like this...http://www.dougherbert.com/pro-sport...per-25774.html
the only guaranteed fix is a dry sump setup.....as long as it doesnt throw/snap a belt like dorans citroen at autosport last year...ouch!!!! other option is a crank damper like this...http://www.dougherbert.com/pro-sport...per-25774.html
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25-01-2011, 07:27 PM
#8
I'm Finding My Feet Here Now
Right, spent the last half hour or so searching and reading through all the threads on here regarding oil pumps.
I know there's much speculation, but after speaking to Dunnell, the Zetec tuning god recently, he told me has never had an oil pump fail on any engine he's built. Even the ones that have revved past 8,300rpm regularly. But then he never boosts them or takes them past 300bhp.
So on that info there's no direct corrolation in revs.
It seems to be revs AND turbo power that kills them, and the nose flexing on the cranks seems to make sense. The lightweight pulleys also seems to make it worse.
So, has anyone ACTUALLY ever seen or heard FIRST hand a Zetec let go at a rev limit lower than 7000rpm, regardless of power.
Is there a bullet proof plan in theory to making a big power Zetec? I.e. 400bhp at 7000rpm limit (if it makes it of course).
Worried about mine now!
I know there's much speculation, but after speaking to Dunnell, the Zetec tuning god recently, he told me has never had an oil pump fail on any engine he's built. Even the ones that have revved past 8,300rpm regularly. But then he never boosts them or takes them past 300bhp.
So on that info there's no direct corrolation in revs.
It seems to be revs AND turbo power that kills them, and the nose flexing on the cranks seems to make sense. The lightweight pulleys also seems to make it worse.
So, has anyone ACTUALLY ever seen or heard FIRST hand a Zetec let go at a rev limit lower than 7000rpm, regardless of power.
Is there a bullet proof plan in theory to making a big power Zetec? I.e. 400bhp at 7000rpm limit (if it makes it of course).
Worried about mine now!
zetec turbo engines, 1@460bhp for 5 years,
with an 8000rpm rev limit. and also in a 570bhp focus turbo. all with no probs so far!but i have just purchased a drysump system
as you say you never know!
cheers paul
25-01-2011, 07:33 PM
#9
Where to start!..... on this one then hey.
After having such a fail on mine, there was NO way I would risk running standard pump.
The added expense was a no brainer for me.
BUT
I understand people questioning wether or not they should!.. The bigger the spec though the more you have to loose!
I know of cars running over 600hp doing it and also cars running under 250 doing it.
Make of that what you will....
It can be down to early pumps having good gears and later having lesser quality gears, who knows.
It also in my rough experience seems more common with the silvertop engines opposed to the black top ones.
It is put down to the harmonics at high rpm flexing the crank which is also exagerated further when boost is bought into the equation.
After having such a fail on mine, there was NO way I would risk running standard pump.
The added expense was a no brainer for me.
BUT
I understand people questioning wether or not they should!.. The bigger the spec though the more you have to loose!
I know of cars running over 600hp doing it and also cars running under 250 doing it.
Make of that what you will....
It can be down to early pumps having good gears and later having lesser quality gears, who knows.
It also in my rough experience seems more common with the silvertop engines opposed to the black top ones.
It is put down to the harmonics at high rpm flexing the crank which is also exagerated further when boost is bought into the equation.
Last edited by Luca; 25-01-2011 at 08:05 PM.
25-01-2011, 08:12 PM
#11
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I'm running a dynamically balanced bottom end, thats including:
Harmonic Damper Auxiliary pulley
Crank pulley bolt
Crank pulley
Knife Edged crank
Rods & Pistons
Flywheel
Clutch Cover
Flywheel bolts
And thats on a billet geared oil pump.
I think thats as far as I can go without a dry sump - later this year will see how well that proves itself.
My old 310bhp supercharged setup which did 60,000 miles was a standard crank, forged rods & pistons, SPEC flywheel, standard crank pulley and a billet geared pump and that regularly saw 7500rpm with the previous owner and 8000rpm on track with me. No oil pump problems at all when inspected!
Harmonic Damper Auxiliary pulley
Crank pulley bolt
Crank pulley
Knife Edged crank
Rods & Pistons
Flywheel
Clutch Cover
Flywheel bolts
And thats on a billet geared oil pump.
I think thats as far as I can go without a dry sump - later this year will see how well that proves itself.
My old 310bhp supercharged setup which did 60,000 miles was a standard crank, forged rods & pistons, SPEC flywheel, standard crank pulley and a billet geared pump and that regularly saw 7500rpm with the previous owner and 8000rpm on track with me. No oil pump problems at all when inspected!
25-01-2011, 08:16 PM
#13
I'm running a dynamically balanced bottom end, thats including:
Harmonic Damper Auxiliary pulley
Crank pulley bolt
Crank pulley
Knife Edged crank
Rods & Pistons
Flywheel
Clutch Cover
Flywheel bolts
And thats on a billet geared oil pump.
I think thats as far as I can go without a dry sump - later this year will see how well that proves itself.
My old 310bhp supercharged setup which did 60,000 miles was a standard crank, forged rods & pistons, SPEC flywheel, standard crank pulley and a billet geared pump and that regularly saw 7500rpm with the previous owner and 8000rpm on track with me. No oil pump problems at all when inspected!
Harmonic Damper Auxiliary pulley
Crank pulley bolt
Crank pulley
Knife Edged crank
Rods & Pistons
Flywheel
Clutch Cover
Flywheel bolts
And thats on a billet geared oil pump.
I think thats as far as I can go without a dry sump - later this year will see how well that proves itself.
My old 310bhp supercharged setup which did 60,000 miles was a standard crank, forged rods & pistons, SPEC flywheel, standard crank pulley and a billet geared pump and that regularly saw 7500rpm with the previous owner and 8000rpm on track with me. No oil pump problems at all when inspected!
ST170 engine though
I dont know of one to fail with oil pump gearing failure, have you yet ?
25-01-2011, 08:20 PM
#14
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The blacktop I saw suffer engine failure was turbocharged and running around 300bhp on a standard 7000rpm rev limit.
The cause was never truly identified but it was running an underdrive (non dampened) crank pulley...
25-01-2011, 08:23 PM
#15
I have seen a blacktop oil pump fail yes. The ST170 and blacktop pumps are the same (despite myths that suggest otherwise!)
The blacktop I saw suffer engine failure was turbocharged and running around 300bhp on a standard 7000rpm rev limit.
The cause was never truly identified but it was running an underdrive (non dampened) crank pulley...
The blacktop I saw suffer engine failure was turbocharged and running around 300bhp on a standard 7000rpm rev limit.
The cause was never truly identified but it was running an underdrive (non dampened) crank pulley...
Well thats added to my list, I have never looked into st170 engines so not sure of there specs...Most last year were silvertop set-ups.
25-01-2011, 08:40 PM
#17
Well, interesting. And slightly shitting it.
Mine has a custom flywheel
Looks like I may be testing some gears for you, as dry sump is out the question and I want some good power.
That's really interesting! Seems there's an element of luck too. And flywheels
I think there is a pattern to what cars let go. Pulleys, flywheels and above 7300rpm all seem to kill oil pumps. Power does not though.
Yep, that's the one bad thing about Zetecs really! What power/revs/spec were you looking to run?
That's a bit shite. Seems pulleys literally kill pumps no matter what.
all the ones i have seen fail seem to have been fitted with light weight flywheels ! my engine has done over 25k with a rev limit of 7300rpm but has the standard flywheel . i also know paul j's engine has revved to over 8k over the years but that has also only ever have standard flywheels.
the billet will not shatter like standard gears.the standard ones are very soft and very brittle...get a hold of some old gears and have a play...they really are shite.
the only guaranteed fix is a dry sump setup.....as long as it doesnt throw/snap a belt like dorans citroen at autosport last year...ouch!!!! other option is a crank damper like this...http://www.dougherbert.com/pro-sport...per-25774.html
the only guaranteed fix is a dry sump setup.....as long as it doesnt throw/snap a belt like dorans citroen at autosport last year...ouch!!!! other option is a crank damper like this...http://www.dougherbert.com/pro-sport...per-25774.html
just to let you know i`ve run the same standard oil pump,in 2 different
zetec turbo engines, 1@460bhp for 5 years, with an 8000rpm rev limit. and also in a 570bhp focus turbo. all with no probs so far!
but i have just purchased a drysump system as you say you never know!
cheers paul
zetec turbo engines, 1@460bhp for 5 years,
with an 8000rpm rev limit. and also in a 570bhp focus turbo. all with no probs so far!but i have just purchased a drysump system
as you say you never know!cheers paul
Where to start!..... on this one then hey.
After having such a fail on mine, there was NO way I would risk running standard pump.
The added expense was a no brainer for me.
BUT
I understand people questioning wether or not they should!.. The bigger the spec though the more you have to loose!
I know of cars running over 600hp doing it and also cars running under 250 doing it.
Make of that what you will....
It can be down to early pumps having good gears and later having lesser quality gears, who knows.
It also in my rough experience seems more common with the silvertop engines opposed to the black top ones.
It is put down to the harmonics at high rpm flexing the crank which is also exagerated further when boost is bought into the equation.
After having such a fail on mine, there was NO way I would risk running standard pump.
The added expense was a no brainer for me.
BUT
I understand people questioning wether or not they should!.. The bigger the spec though the more you have to loose!
I know of cars running over 600hp doing it and also cars running under 250 doing it.
Make of that what you will....
It can be down to early pumps having good gears and later having lesser quality gears, who knows.
It also in my rough experience seems more common with the silvertop engines opposed to the black top ones.
It is put down to the harmonics at high rpm flexing the crank which is also exagerated further when boost is bought into the equation.
I have seen a blacktop oil pump fail yes. The ST170 and blacktop pumps are the same (despite myths that suggest otherwise!)
The blacktop I saw suffer engine failure was turbocharged and running around 300bhp on a standard 7000rpm rev limit.
The cause was never truly identified but it was running an underdrive (non dampened) crank pulley...
The blacktop I saw suffer engine failure was turbocharged and running around 300bhp on a standard 7000rpm rev limit.
The cause was never truly identified but it was running an underdrive (non dampened) crank pulley...
25-01-2011, 08:50 PM
#19
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Si.
Fit a harmonic damper pulley as a minimum and get the bottom end of the engine dynamically balanced if its not built yet.
Fit a harmonic damper pulley as a minimum and get the bottom end of the engine dynamically balanced if its not built yet.
25-01-2011, 08:58 PM
#20
Wasn't Dan Arrowsmith that had failure of a pump during running in? I'm sure I read that he did.
It's certainly a concern that's led me to go down the black top route with my car. It's still a risk, but seems less regular on black top engines.
Would be nice to go down the dry sump road, but it adds a massive amount to build costs sadly.
It's certainly a concern that's led me to go down the black top route with my car. It's still a risk, but seems less regular on black top engines.
Would be nice to go down the dry sump road, but it adds a massive amount to build costs sadly.
25-01-2011, 09:05 PM
#21
Wasn't Dan Arrowsmith that had failure of a pump during running in? I'm sure I read that he did.
It's certainly a concern that's led me to go down the black top route with my car. It's still a risk, but seems less regular on black top engines.
Would be nice to go down the dry sump road, but it adds a massive amount to build costs sadly.
It's certainly a concern that's led me to go down the black top route with my car. It's still a risk, but seems less regular on black top engines.
Would be nice to go down the dry sump road, but it adds a massive amount to build costs sadly.
25-01-2011, 09:44 PM
#23
Advanced PassionFord User
Where can you get harmonic damper pulleys from and at what sort of price?
Also where does dynamic balancing?
Also where does dynamic balancing?
Last edited by creator; 25-01-2011 at 09:45 PM.
25-01-2011, 09:49 PM
#24
Advanced PassionFord User
its mostly down to harmonics and the forces invovled with a turbo charged engine, my engine has run a early ford standard oil pump for 2 years at 300 bhp then was kept on the 500bhp engine with no problems , iam not having the old blacktops are better than silvertops debate as materials are getting cheaper and shitter quality and i would now never ever run a new ford silvertop oil pump because of this reason.
maybe blacktops dont break as easy because most people in america etc run billet gears and they are only available for the blacktop. you could buy a harmonic damper (this would be my first port of call) then billet gears but i think there is really only one option and thats dry sumping the engine as you take all the problems away which lets face it there could be a number of problems and until its tested in a lab your never going to find out what the cause is. it also makes me laugh how everyone is relying on a standard ford damper that was designed for a 7000rpm 134bhp engine with nothing like the forces a turbo chrged engine brings to the table.
cheers paul
maybe blacktops dont break as easy because most people in america etc run billet gears and they are only available for the blacktop. you could buy a harmonic damper (this would be my first port of call) then billet gears but i think there is really only one option and thats dry sumping the engine as you take all the problems away which lets face it there could be a number of problems and until its tested in a lab your never going to find out what the cause is. it also makes me laugh how everyone is relying on a standard ford damper that was designed for a 7000rpm 134bhp engine with nothing like the forces a turbo chrged engine brings to the table.
cheers paul
25-01-2011, 09:56 PM
#25
There's no denying Silvertops have more oil pump problems than Blacktops, regardless of uprated gears.
I know of cars on standard gears above 400bhp and no problems. I know of two that are intending to nudge 500bhp very soon and they are sure enough to be running standard pumps and gears.
I know of cars on standard gears above 400bhp and no problems. I know of two that are intending to nudge 500bhp very soon and they are sure enough to be running standard pumps and gears.
25-01-2011, 10:00 PM
#26
Yeah I do think the black top has proven to be more reliable. I've heard of few cases of failure in this country. The MK1 FRS seems to be ok, and other people with turbocharged engines seem ok. I couldn't comment on cases in the USA, as I don't really know of any cars from over there or their specs.
What I have seen is several silver tops that have suffered failure using standard pumps. I've only heard of a couple of black tops failing.
What I have seen is several silver tops that have suffered failure using standard pumps. I've only heard of a couple of black tops failing.
25-01-2011, 10:14 PM
#27
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My pump let go during a run to the MOT station running less than a bar of boost. Yes my engine is a silvertop and it saw over 530bhp on the dyno without a failure.
My honest opinion is that the crank flexing is causing the issues! You have more torque or Rez high and the crank flexes and exaggerates the movement at the nose of the crank. 130bhp standard there are never any problems hence ford spec a part to suit. Save Ł1 on each pump make a million and do the maths!
I have the bills at nearly Ł5k to put the problem right that anybody looking to risk a big power zetec without a drysump is obviously a betting man! Where the break point lies is anybody's guess but all engines have their weak spots and we have found the zetec's!
I also know for a fact the WRC lumps ran uprated pump gears due to regs but these were seen as a replacement serviceable item that was changed at every rebuild.
My honest opinion is that the crank flexing is causing the issues! You have more torque or Rez high and the crank flexes and exaggerates the movement at the nose of the crank. 130bhp standard there are never any problems hence ford spec a part to suit. Save Ł1 on each pump make a million and do the maths!
I have the bills at nearly Ł5k to put the problem right that anybody looking to risk a big power zetec without a drysump is obviously a betting man! Where the break point lies is anybody's guess but all engines have their weak spots and we have found the zetec's!
I also know for a fact the WRC lumps ran uprated pump gears due to regs but these were seen as a replacement serviceable item that was changed at every rebuild.
25-01-2011, 10:17 PM
#28
I have seen a blacktop oil pump fail yes. The ST170 and blacktop pumps are the same (despite myths that suggest otherwise!)
The blacktop I saw suffer engine failure was turbocharged and running around 300bhp on a standard 7000rpm rev limit.
The cause was never truly identified but it was running an underdrive (non dampened) crank pulley...
The blacktop I saw suffer engine failure was turbocharged and running around 300bhp on a standard 7000rpm rev limit.
The cause was never truly identified but it was running an underdrive (non dampened) crank pulley...
I ran with an alloy under drive pulley which was the suspect of the failure. Rev wise i was at less than 4k in second boosting up a steep hill when it let go. Damage was minimal due to having an oil pressure gauge and the ford one both confirming there was no pressure so i shut down quickly.
25-01-2011, 10:25 PM
#30
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i was watching a car being mapped on the dyno it had just finished being run in and was straped down with a fresh oil change ready to be mapped it was warmed up and one power run was done on the running in map. then the rev limiter was raised to 7100 the map was tweeked and the car was run up.
it dident even get near the 7100 limiter and the oil presure gauge was flashing
pump gears shattered..
made about 300hp tho
after JUST the oil pump was changed (lucky man) the car went on to make 430hp
saying that when the pump shattered it was running an alloy flywheel and bottom pully. that was swaped for a standard bottom pully lol
shitting a brick tho ive got a standard aftermarket (autopumps?) oil pump on my zetec getting ready to start it tomorro
it dident even get near the 7100 limiter and the oil presure gauge was flashing
pump gears shattered..made about 300hp tho
after JUST the oil pump was changed (lucky man) the car went on to make 430hp
saying that when the pump shattered it was running an alloy flywheel and bottom pully. that was swaped for a standard bottom pully lol
shitting a brick tho ive got a standard aftermarket (autopumps?) oil pump on my zetec getting ready to start it tomorro
Last edited by clarke5700; 25-01-2011 at 10:30 PM.
25-01-2011, 10:26 PM
#31
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And yes Steve, it was your engine I was referring to!
That said, I've seen a Blacktop doing 8000rpm on ITB's kill an oil pump too...
25-01-2011, 10:31 PM
#33
I have underdrive pulleys on my ST170, a lightweight fly wheel and the cars see 7600rpm all the time, no oil pump problems but when the engine is finally boosted the standard dampner will be going back on. I have a standard spare harmonic dampner if any one wants one.
25-01-2011, 10:33 PM
#34
Advanced PassionFord User
There's no denying Silvertops have more oil pump problems than Blacktops, regardless of uprated gears.
I know of cars on standard gears above 400bhp and no problems. I know of two that are intending to nudge 500bhp very soon and they are sure enough to be running standard pumps and gears.
I know of cars on standard gears above 400bhp and no problems. I know of two that are intending to nudge 500bhp very soon and they are sure enough to be running standard pumps and gears.
more fool them , if one is robptt then tell me and i can talk him round as hes coming to my house on 5 feb, maybe less blacktop pumps break as theres only one i know that pushing decent bhp and thats paul johnson , i can name 4 big bhp silvertops , dan arrowsmith (broke) , luca (broke) , laims (broke) and mine (never broke so iam the lucky one
)sorry lads i had too
cheers paul
25-01-2011, 10:42 PM
#36
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25-01-2011, 10:46 PM
#38
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Boys it's like CVH's with camshafts it's an engine weak spot. Get up to 600bhp on a zetec and you also get issues with the water jackets around the exhaust ports. There is not enough flow to absorb the heat, hence warping and bang bang head gaskets! These are not YB engines that were always built for big things. These are 16V mondeo engines with good flow characteristics made to do things they don't want to!
25-01-2011, 10:52 PM
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Boys it's like CVH's with camshafts it's an engine weak spot. Get up to 600bhp on a zetec and you also get issues with the water jackets around the exhaust ports. There is not enough flow to absorb the heat, hence warping and bang bang head gaskets! These are not YB engines that were always built for big things. These are 16V mondeo engines with good flow characteristics made to do things they don't want to!