dug112y

iTrader: (1)

as most of the zetec boys will know there is an issue with the standard gears shattering, there has been various speculation on why this happens,high revs,solid engine mounts,bad balancing,crank nose flex etc. well the dry sump conversion is expensive and a pain to fit on a fwd ......so i have had these made.... being from billet they should not shatter like the standard sintered ones. they are made from a similar material to the dry sump pump gears. they are currently undergoing track testing to 8k+. they have done a dyno session and 3 trackdays so far with good oil pressure and no issues.
would anyone be interested in them? or PM me


a little pic for you all

Red16

How much are they?

I don't want to buy any but I think that's what most people reading this thread will want to know.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

What power are they running at on the test vehicle?

Not saying power is the killer however!

QplateRST!

Price?

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

price will depend on how many are getting made.prob going to be £200 posted. test car is zetec on bike carbs running about 160bhp.......and it gets a hard time on track. some of the oil pump gear failures have been at low revs so its not the power causing it.

mattseries2

iTrader: (1)

Havent these been used before or one like this and they have still broke?

GaryHurn

iTrader: (1)

i would like to see them used on and engine that produces alot more torque, then you will see how strong they are

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

matt, as far as i know no one has made any billet pump gears for a silvertop zetec.

gary, is that what you think is causing the issue?

i am not so sure myself as the standard ones have shattered on N/A engines too. with the standard ones being sintered (basically powdered metal pressed together and heated due to cost of manufacture and the shape of the gears)billet ones are much much stronger and less prone to vibration/fatigue.

crazycage

the lad in hungary smashed a set of billet ones in a silvertop.

it seems if you keep the standard flywheel and bottom pully they dont tend to shatter

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

what one ..the drag fiesta? i asked him about that ages ago, he never said they were billet gears.
i have heard that about the front pulley because it has a harmonic damper but i am positive some have went with a standard pulley too.

v man

i had this conversation with ian howell when he built my engine as it was around the time it happened to luca

and he thinks its due to the crank everso slightly moving up and down with high revs
so crank bounch really

Liams

This has happened to me twice... second time the gear was crio treated. Waste of time!!

I think this gear needs to be tested with alot more power! In my fiesta the engine was around 300hp and it was fine for best part of 2 years, not ever day driving mind due! I did treat it pretty hard too, bouncing of the limiter of 7k on most outings (not the best thing to do I know!)

When the engine went in my cortina with a much bigger spec this is when the problems arrived!
However.. when the engine went rwd I ditched the standard crank pulley, whether this had an effect I dont know?! Im still running the same pulley now but drysumped so prob wouldnt show up as bad if unbalanced...

I believe if your engine has a bit of nose flex it doesnt matter what your gear is made out of, if whats spinning around inside has movement and the gear doesnt somthing is going to give?!

I may be completely wrong! I wanted to also go the billet gear route as of the price of drysumping but heard of too many failures so bit the bullet!

Would be interesting to see how these cope though but as said with a fair bit more power!

liam

v man

my engine/bottom end/head was best part of 10k

think dry sump is on the cards

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

i am taking on board all comments made.

v,man if your spending 10k on a bottom end a dry sump aint a problem.fwd or rwd?? i am looking for a fix for people that arent spending 10k and want a bit extra piece of mind or are making an effort to alleviate the problem without a £1500 dry sump.

v man

yeh i know that but with you starting this tread it has shown me how many people have had problems that i dont want

i hope the billet gear is a fix for people

can the gear be made from a stronger metal than your using again if the one you have made brakes

what are the other options with this

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

liam cheers for comments,cryo treatment wont help much with a sintered part.
alot of people were saying it was over 7k that was causing issues,along with removing standard front pullet as that takes away harmonic vibration through its inbuilt damper.

from what i have found i believe that the billet metal will not shatter like sintered.

you said you were going to go the billet route on your silvertop...where were you going to get the gears as i cant find anyone else making them for silver top zetec let alone any failures. you can get them from CFM in the U.S for a blacktop but i am unaware of the material and did not reply to an email,hence me asking dry sump manufacturers for the info.

lacey

Hello the dry sump pumps rotars are sıntered and they come from ındıa and i only ever seen them crack because part of the engıne has tryed to go through them and most gear pumpd use a harder mıld steel lıke en36 or somethıng similar. it maybe the desıgn of the gear that needs looking in to ( ıe how many lobs/key relation to lobs or ever the number and sıze of the lob) these may be somethıng that wants to be looked at but ıf you are runnıng good power and your motor has cost a arm and a leg then go dry sump then you have the problem of getting ıt posted to you ın the same year as there reaction tımes are shit and also whıch ones do work as there not all as good as you thınk they are

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

well out of the people i have asked about dry sumps their gears were not sintered they were billet. i am not saying all dry sump pump gears are but the ones i have inquired about are. i have had the design of the gear checked and its ok they just said the material was rubbish.. ... car makers wont use billet gears in a production car due to cost.

i would love to get them tried in a higher power engine but as there is a lot of money spent to get it to big power there is not many people willing to try them. catch 22

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

its made from the best material for the job. i have been looking into this for a long time,they are not an easy thing to make. you can go with a harder material yes but you wouldnt want to as there is drawbacks to going too hard!!

there are not many options hence my reason for looking into it and getting these made.

dry sump was the only 'proper' option but at high cost and as most zetecs are FWD fitting dry sump is a bit of a mission.

thanks Doug

Liams

I dont think it matters what the drysump gear is made out of as you havent got a crank with nose flex going through it....

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

true but they still need them ultra reliable because of the engines they are used on.

clarke5700

fair play for going out there en getting them made mate.. i would be intrested most defantly

SiZT

This ^

And This ^

The reason the pump gears shatter (IMO) is down to 2 things moving in ways they shouldn't. Namely the crank pulley and crank (less so in Silvertops). The chrysler tritec (mk1 Bini engine) has the same problem with the crank pulley killing oil pumps. The only way to solve it (again imo) is a dampened crank pulley on both and stronger main caps on Blacktops.

Mega for sorting this out off your own back, it's refreshing to see enthusiast's helping each other out. You'll have to keep us updated on how they stand up to big power engines. I'll take measurements of a Blacktop pump tomorrow to see if there the same.

Lloyd

the black top pumps are different,i looked at getting some billett pumps made for the silver top engine,the big problem was going to be warrenty issues, if a gear you supplied, fails in a 10k engine,who is going to pay for the repair?and the cost of insuring against the liability was far too much.

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

yes i mind messaging you about them mate. i havent had a blacktop one to bits but cfm already does blacktop ones but not silvertop..... its took this long to research,design and manufacture and test them thus far......no warranty i'm afraid. racing parts rarely have a warranty. if you buy a dry sump kit off whoever and the engine blows up do they pay for the engine...i dont think so. same said for say conrods....if you fit them and one throws a leg out the bed do they pay for consequential damage, pay for your new engine and give you new rods? i doubt it.

cheers dougie

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

I spoke to Paul Dunnell recently about oil pump failure issues on Silvertops. He said he's NEVER had one fail and he's revved them well past 8k on quite a few of his engines. He only uses standard Ford pumps rebuilt though and won't touch a copy pump.

He suggested the high power turbo engines are causing the crank nose to flex and he was adamant that the crank pulley has very little to do with it.

He is a bit of a god when it comes to Zetecs too!

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

interesting post...i have dunnell stuff in my engine,shit hot stuff IMO

Brian

iTrader: (2)

Will these fit a Blacktop?


Brian

packman

Need to see them on a engine making 240 + hp and making power at 8200 rpm and and ceiling of 8500.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Well Dunnell says a standard pump and gears do that. It seems boosted cars only break pumps without fail.

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

that will be on the cards shortly, as if all is well when test engine is stripped and all checked they are going into my dunnell engine.

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

Theoretically, i should be fine with 1.8 blacktop if i leave everything standard except ARP conrod bolts, and an absolute rev limit of 8000rpm. Possible skimmed standard flywheel, and then balance the entire bottom end.

May have a second engine coming spare so can choose closest and lightest match of all 8 pistons.

But all these comments do get you thinking.

In my case i'll only have a few hundred quid invested so if it wrecks itself i'll either have a complete spare engine or buy a complete new unit for £600. The throttle bodies and exhaust and all sensors etc can be swapped over easy enough.

I'll be giving mine abuse, that's for sure.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

I know of 400+ bhp Zetec turbos revving to over 7200rpm on custom or skimmed flywheels that haven't been balanced that have no issues.

crazycage

mine being one of them.

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

fuck it we'll see if im an unlucky one

zetecbeast

Any updates on this.
Is there any further solutions out to stop crank nose flex if that is an issue with higher HP turbo engines?
Billet main caps ? billet crank?

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Last theory I heard after a recent failure was that it's not to do with nose flex at all...

But rather than pursue the idea we've all just fitted dry sumps

zetecbeast

Ouch!!!
How much does a dry sump run to? from some preliminary research it seems about £1500...? is there a 'preferred' setup?
Space isnt a major issue for my application luckily

crazycage

more like 2k with tank and lines

rs turbo lad

my big power zetec turbo engine killed the pump this weekend at pod did anyone ever continue with the billet gear idea

very intrested before my rebuild!!!!!!