Zetec oil pump failures - some actual definative FACTS please...
#42
Advanced PassionFord User
steel crank Ł1700+
dry sump system Ł1100 pace or titan
mine pace kit cost Ł850 for the full kit sold the pump for Ł370 and brought a drag racing pump from america for Ł900 including the pulley
pace told me that there pump was designed for the formula ford engine and they had no feed back on a turbo zetec which did not fill me with confidence , armstrong dry sumps however said that pumps like the titan and pace does not pull a internal vacuum thats needed on a high boosted engine and that his pumps are used on 1400bhp 2.0litre drag engines and are the finest quality , believe when turning the pumps over by hand the suction between the pace pump and the armstrong pump are light years apart, the only down side is i had to make a bracket to hold the pump and buy a different sized belt and alter the hose connections on the sump
cheers paul
#43
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Straight outta Essex
Posts: 1,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where there is a will there's a way!
#44
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Straight outta Essex
Posts: 1,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#45
passionford pro
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lanarkshire,Scotland
Posts: 1,616
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
if you bought a dry sump kit and it broke would they pay for a new engine??
if you bought big valves and one dropped would the valve supplier buy you a new engine/head??
#46
Advanced PassionFord User
not sure about the st170 head
dan it will be in the post by 5 tomoz and cheers
cheers paul
#47
Borg Warner EFR Equipped!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the unit, building a 450bhp Time Attack Focus!
Posts: 5,810
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
as it for a racing engine no warranty.if someone wants to test them its their choice but i would help them as much as i could .i have had these made for myself so have taken a lot of time and cut no corners as i wouldnt want them to fuck up in my engines. they have been tested for months but not in a high power turbo car.had no problems so far.
if you bought a dry sump kit and it broke would they pay for a new engine??
if you bought big valves and one dropped would the valve supplier buy you a new engine/head??
if you bought a dry sump kit and it broke would they pay for a new engine??
if you bought big valves and one dropped would the valve supplier buy you a new engine/head??
I spent a LONG time and a LOT of money on non destructive testing and spoke with a lot of people who have considerably more knowledge than me (including some of my old F1 colleagues) and the conclusion was, in summary, "don't bother".
It is physically impossible to increase the amount of material in the recesses where the pump gear rotates. It's in these recesses that the stress raisers form and ultimately crack from.
I was close to Ł1000 in with all the research and development costs before I called it a day
#49
Borg Warner EFR Equipped!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the unit, building a 450bhp Time Attack Focus!
Posts: 5,810
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
As it is, i'm still on a billet geared pump myself for now. If I get a windfall and have the money, dry sump is my next step for sure.
#50
passionford pro
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lanarkshire,Scotland
Posts: 1,616
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Just to give you a quick heads up, I looked into remanufacturing the billet geared pumps after I found out about 3 billet geared pumps (in the UK alone) that had failed.
I spent a LONG time and a LOT of money on non destructive testing and spoke with a lot of people who have considerably more knowledge than me (including some of my old F1 colleagues) and the conclusion was, in summary, "don't bother".
It is physically impossible to increase the amount of material in the recesses where the pump gear rotates. It's in these recesses that the stress raisers form and ultimately crack from.
I was close to Ł1000 in with all the research and development costs before I called it a day
I spent a LONG time and a LOT of money on non destructive testing and spoke with a lot of people who have considerably more knowledge than me (including some of my old F1 colleagues) and the conclusion was, in summary, "don't bother".
It is physically impossible to increase the amount of material in the recesses where the pump gear rotates. It's in these recesses that the stress raisers form and ultimately crack from.
I was close to Ł1000 in with all the research and development costs before I called it a day
thanks for the heads up mate...i've done similar to yourself also with good contacts but the end response was different because i was advised it was more the poor quality of mass manufactured sintered gears that were not up to the punishment they are taking from the crank that was the issue not their design. so i went ahead and got them done.
i take it the billet geared pumps you are talking about blacktops???with cfm gears
#51
Borg Warner EFR Equipped!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the unit, building a 450bhp Time Attack Focus!
Posts: 5,810
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
thanks for the heads up mate...i've done similar to yourself also with good contacts but the end response was different because i was advised it was more the poor quality of mass manufactured sintered gears that were not up to the punishment they are taking from the crank that was the issue not their design. so i went ahead and got them done.
i take it the billet geared pumps you are talking about blacktops???with cfm gears
i take it the billet geared pumps you are talking about blacktops???with cfm gears
I got hold of one set of broken billet gears, a broken standard, a new set of billet geared and a new standard and sent them all off for anaylsis/inspection.
The design comment was aimed at the billet geared ones as we knew from the outset that the sintered ones were shit
#53
more fool them , if one is robptt then tell me and i can talk him round as hes coming to my house on 5 feb, maybe less blacktop pumps break as theres only one i know that pushing decent bhp and thats paul johnson , i can name 4 big bhp silvertops , dan arrowsmith (broke) , luca (broke) , laims (broke) and mine (never broke so iam the lucky one)
sorry lads i had too
cheers paul
sorry lads i had too
cheers paul
As Clarke said, Alex's Blacktop engine had a early low rev oil pump fail which was put down to shit pulleys. It went on to do 440bhp with no sign of problems and had a very hard life.
Crazycage has done 25k (MUCH more mileage than any other car here) peaking around 370bhp now and never had a problem.
I think it's fair to say Blacktops have a stronger oil pump.
I thought steel crank would be another way to combat it, but as stated it's not economically viable compared to a dry sump.
#55
Lukesville
iTrader: (2)
I know Sazybk had a pump failure on billet gears too. Which is also why he went for the dry sump.
If you are pushing good strong power matched with high revs and thrashing the car constantly, then dry sump should be seriously considered.
With regards Paul changing pump design for a race spec item.
I know Titan have now released a new “gear” type pump, the TG2 which is an upgrade over the rotor style pump that is supplied standard with the kits.
Steel crank is something to think about when going for a 600+hp engine.
I really don’t see the need below that, the dry sump kit would be a better investment!
If you are pushing good strong power matched with high revs and thrashing the car constantly, then dry sump should be seriously considered.
With regards Paul changing pump design for a race spec item.
I know Titan have now released a new “gear” type pump, the TG2 which is an upgrade over the rotor style pump that is supplied standard with the kits.
Steel crank is something to think about when going for a 600+hp engine.
I really don’t see the need below that, the dry sump kit would be a better investment!
Last edited by Luca; 26-01-2011 at 08:46 AM.
#56
Turbocharging Technician
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Top secret. Mission:Imposible.
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is the beauty of making performance parts, no one will offer warranty, so you pay a premium for them and then get no back up when it goes wrong, its win win for the supplier. And your left with no choice but to buy another as what other option is there?
#57
PassionFord Post Whore!!
iTrader: (1)
as it for a racing engine no warranty.if someone wants to test them its their choice but i would help them as much as i could .i have had these made for myself so have taken a lot of time and cut no corners as i wouldnt want them to fuck up in my engines. they have been tested for months but not in a high power turbo car.had no problems so far.
if you bought a dry sump kit and it broke would they pay for a new engine??
if you bought big valves and one dropped would the valve supplier buy you a new engine/head??
if you bought a dry sump kit and it broke would they pay for a new engine??
if you bought big valves and one dropped would the valve supplier buy you a new engine/head??
It's an awful lot to risk, and could mean a large financial loss for those testing it for you. Especially for those wanting to build a turbocharged engine, the standard oil pump may work fine, and your upgrade which has had limited testing may directly cause failure. To expect the customer to cover the cost of that failure seems a bit extreme to me. If you can find people willing to risk that, then fair play though.
It is a shame that a solution can't be found, as the dry sump idea suddenly makes the Zetec turbo idea a very expensive proposition. However, it does seem that the black top is less susceptible to the failure than the silver top, and using standard pulleys and things does seem to help with that. Undoubtedly some risk involved, but I can see why people don't want to go down the dry sump route!
#58
Borg Warner EFR Equipped!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the unit, building a 450bhp Time Attack Focus!
Posts: 5,810
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Exactly. However, I chose not to tarnish my reputation by supplying parts that would potentially lead to engine failures and warranty arguments etc.
#59
Turbocharging Technician
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Top secret. Mission:Imposible.
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#60
Advanced PassionFord User
My personal view is that its down to harmonics and possibly crank flex at a certain RPM, I'm no expert but its what people have told me who do this for a living.
That is why all 1800 Formula Ford engines I have seen run a dry sump for reliability
My steel farndon crank is over 2kg heavier than standard to reduce flexing, I have hadd all the bottom end dynamically balanced and also run a dry sump system
If using the std set up get it properly balanced by someone like vibration free and fit a proper crank dampener pully like the TCI Rattler
Their about Ł350 from vibration free
http://www.vibrationfree.co.uk/Rattler.htm
That is why all 1800 Formula Ford engines I have seen run a dry sump for reliability
My steel farndon crank is over 2kg heavier than standard to reduce flexing, I have hadd all the bottom end dynamically balanced and also run a dry sump system
If using the std set up get it properly balanced by someone like vibration free and fit a proper crank dampener pully like the TCI Rattler
Their about Ł350 from vibration free
http://www.vibrationfree.co.uk/Rattler.htm
#61
Advanced PassionFord User
If your in the market to buy a dry sump pump get it from here:
http://www.aviaid.com/
They supply Motor Design in Sweden who do work for Ford WRC and Ford Rally Cross cars
http://www.motordesign.se/
Thats who I'm getting my new pump from for my Focus Rs 5 cyl engine
http://www.aviaid.com/
They supply Motor Design in Sweden who do work for Ford WRC and Ford Rally Cross cars
http://www.motordesign.se/
Thats who I'm getting my new pump from for my Focus Rs 5 cyl engine
#65
Advanced PassionFord User
#66
Advanced PassionFord User
http://www.raceline.co.uk/products/p...2&CategoryID=2
Anyone seen/tried/used/heard of these? (the system not Raceline).
Anyone seen/tried/used/heard of these? (the system not Raceline).
The link looks like a titan kit IMO
#69
15K+ Super Poster!!
The black top with it's alloy crank case means it is more rigid than a siver top which will help in these applications.
Rick
Last edited by Rick; 26-01-2011 at 12:45 PM.
#70
Turbocharging Technician
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Top secret. Mission:Imposible.
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#72
passionford pro
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lanarkshire,Scotland
Posts: 1,616
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Without wishing to cause offence, that would seriously put me off. If I built an engine and offered to help you develop your kit, and that directly resulted in my expensive engine failing, I would expect at least some kind of help in rebuilding could mean a large financial loss for those testing it for you.
#73
Turbocharging Technician
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Top secret. Mission:Imposible.
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#74
Advanced PassionFord User
#75
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 1,377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bit worried now as im going ZT.
But no one makes a dry sump setup that bolts straight onto a FWD Zetec.
How have people got round this?
What do i need to buy? What kit? What extras?
How much work is it?
But no one makes a dry sump setup that bolts straight onto a FWD Zetec.
How have people got round this?
What do i need to buy? What kit? What extras?
How much work is it?
#79
PassionFord Post Whore!!
#80
Advanced PassionFord User