Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

Yeah thats quite an easy idea, oil pressure switch runs a relay for the coil live feed, but of course not when cranking.... or you'll take ages to start! lol

zetaboostboy522bhp

500+ bhp on a gt28 , iam not having a go in anyway but have you seen the gt28 compressor map?

anyway back to the pump , alot of people including me dont think about how the pumps can be mounted and on fwd cars ,like on the fiesta the chassis leg is in the way not allowing you to the oil pump pulley etc , the easiest way would be to mount the oil pump on front of the cylinder head and drive it off the cam pulleys instead of cutting the sump up etc
heres some pics of cam driven dry sump pumps





the only other option i personally believe is remachine the oil pump casing making it deeper so you could run a thicker and wider oil gear adding say double the materials overall strenght . maybe put the gears mounted in a bearing housing which could inturn help with crank nose flex, the question is who would be willing to do all of the development work and then risk a engine?

cheers paul

HockeyNomad

It isnt a conventional GT28 lol,

I should have said one of Ians GT28 Hybrids then lol, its a GT2871 sized turbo from the outside, Im sure Ian will beable to tell you what is on the inside,

Liams

Paul, what sort of horsepower are those engines? They look bloody impressive! Does anything change oil flow wise with an engine tilted like that?

zetaboostboy522bhp

[quote=HockeyNomad;5316093]It isnt a conventional GT28 lol,

I should have said one of Ians GT28 Hybrids then lol, its a GT2871 sized turbo from the outside, Im sure Ian will beable to tell you what is on the inside, [/quote

i think he mentioned that he got a stage 5 turbo which could flow 500 bhp but iam sure he said it was a t34 housing etc , still well done mate it must be a right aminal

as for the engine being mounted like that , then no as with the dry sumped engine with the correct pump it will pump oil anywhere, the only down side to doing this is say in the above picture is the scavaging would have to be at the front of the engine as that would be the way the oil runs. in standard engine form you can go front or back giving you more options for pipe runs etc, i believe the little picture the engine was around 560bhp , however the bottom picture is shaun carlson drag racing meguires ford focus with over 1000bhp running on methonal , everything was custom built by esslinger including a custom cylinder head which makes a evo head look small the ports are massive.

cheers paul

Liams

[QUOTE=zetaboostboy522bhp;5316145]Yes all the outlets would need to be on the front of course.. i didnt know if it effected the way the oil drains out the head or oil building up under the rocker cover, you'd think you would have a cam constantly sitting under oil...

Those guys obviously know what there doing though so have no dought they have the solutions behind these problems!! Custom cylinder head... clearly alot of development has gone into this engine! Monsterious power!!

excursion

To me the oil pump gears are a symptom of the underlying problem, and I wouldn't be happy simply changing these in the hope they were strong enough to mask the original issue.

The best starting point by far is the black top engine - Ford went to a lot of trouble making a stronger overall unit to make up for the compromise of the shared architecture for 1.6 - 2.0: the silver top 2.0 was always criticised as being harsh, as simply too much metal was removed from between the bores. In contrast the 1.6 was a vey sweet engine.

The problem with the enthusiast Turbo builds is there's no real durability testing - they're just built and considered good if they don't blow up within a relatively short space of time, when in reality parts the architecture (mainly bearing loadings etc.) is pushed way past what it should cope with. I think the sensible ceiling for the standard block is 400bhp.

CGI block is very nice for long term reliability and way better NVH (not that many care about that).

To the original point/question - Data collection is a good idea, but to get anything meaningful you really need:

- RPM limit
- Flywheel power
- Hours of use
- Balancing information
- Pistons/Rods used (ideally weight too)
- Flywheel type and weight
- Crank pulley type
- Ancillaries in use

zetaboostboy522bhp

that is a very good and put across well , but your missing the point here as to do what you have said above would cost Ł00000 in time and research when you can simply eliminate the oil pump problem for around lets say the worst possible case Ł2000 worth of dry sump system , then youve got to find someone who is willing to do this , i will say it will never happen, iam sure someone like harvey gibbs with all his dyno equipment hasnt tested his high powered engines for 100s of hours and put pressure sensors all over the engine to see if there is any weak spots on a cossy engine as what we are now talking about would have to be done in a controlled enviroment like a rearch lab.
most engine machine shops can balance a engine etc but whos to say inbalance is the cause of the gears failing, you see we are all guessing
iam not having a dig mate as i would love to see this happen i just dont think it will

cheers paul

excursion

Paul,
Yes for sure, but fitting a dry sump system still leaves the crank loading, it would be interesting to see bearing shells in high HP zetec's that have done a few thousand miles.

I've been thinking about this some more and I can't see it is harmonics - if so there would be a direct correlation between failiure and RPM.

My money is on cylinder pressure, which directly relates to crank loading (as some have said) - in which case static CR, boost and cam timing are the key factors.

In an case, Black top and dry sump sounds like the best option.

Cheers,
Mark

zetaboostboy522bhp

from speaking to ian howell , i can honestly say ive asked him this question many times and all the high powered rebuilds like sunny , p.johnson he said that the bearings where in near as perfect condition as when he fitted them , he said that if there that much flex in the crank then hes sure there would be more failures around.
all i can say is fit a dry sump system and steel crank if you can afford it lol

cheers paul

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Seems it's got a lot of people worried which wasn't the intention. Just to be clear it's only really a concern for cars above 350bhp IMO.

I'm looking into it as I'm hoping to put 2 bar through a GT30 on my engine

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Interesting regarding cylinder pressures, I wonder if the theory of keeping revs down with high boost would work.

weeman84

well..... you have me worried now

im only planning on running up to 300 bhp..........but still.........

TimC

iTrader: (1)

http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=333816

What is required is for somebody to just take the time out to develop something similar to this.

The difference with the EVO oil pump failures is not flex causing shattered pumps, but oil surge on right hand corners over 1G.

little bram

I was planing on about 350bhp then trying to push for more. Am going to talk to simon about it when am there. I mite hold it at 300bhp til i get the flywheel and box sorted.
Burton do a pace dry sump kit and it dosnt say anythink about it being FWD or RWD that i can see. If pace make a dry sump kit they should have made it to fit the car the zetec engine come from ie fwd cars i would have thought.
If i get the kit will my drive shaft clear it because it says the pump is under the inlet

lee

excursion

Clears that up then - just leaves the issue of the money

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

In which case you should maybe be worried

As far as I know there's no dry sump kit for a FWD Zetec. The kits were only devloped for Zetec race engines, which only appeared in kit cars/race cars/1 make series cars which were all RWD.

creator

The Ł50,000 it cost to develop mate.i dont think any ford tuners would be willing to do it for the zetec engine as it wouldnt be cost effective.

excursion

Nor do I don't think many of our cars can compete with the Evo in terms of cornering G

clarke5700

my oil presure light goes out on cranking quicker than the battery light

zetaboostboy522bhp

like creator says Ł50,000 is alot of money and no tuner is going to spend all that money unless there building i would say 3 big bhp engines a month and the last time i checked with ian hes lucky if he gets 3 a year.

anyway back to the question about is there a dry sump for fwd cars

i dont know is the answer as its all about how close your crank pulley is to the chassis leg . i have a friend who is fitting one to a focus , s2 ecort rs turbo so they maybe can shed on light on this for us
as for the mk3 fiesta then no as theres simply no room to get the oil pump pulley to fit onto the crank pulley as theres no room that why luca had to cut his sump up reweld the bottom section and mount the pump in a different position , i would think that this is the same with the pace dry sump kit . so like i said the next option would be to buy either kit and custom mount the pump next to the head and drive it off the cam pulleys, that way you would not have to cut the sump pan up but you would have to spend a little more on pipe runs.
because i brought another pump i had to make a custom bracket on which to mount the pump but iam going 4x4 so no room problems for me , but making one bracket is not rocket science and getting mk motorsport to make it is easy enough.

i think it can be done for Ł1500 max if you not using posh anodised fitting etc
Ł850 sump kit
Ł50 bracket
Ł200/300
Ł300 pipes and fittings (no goodridge)

cheers paul
cheers paul




the titan kit

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

What's the third price down supposed to be? Seems you left it off?

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Its difficult to design a kit for FWD becuase every car is different although the engine and pump may be the same.

My car we even had to cut out the chassis rail and box it in to clear the bottom pulley for the dry sump pump. If it wasnt for an alternator on mine then it would have made it so very much simpler.

Due to that though, the sump pan was cut and a plate mounted underneath for the pump to run off. The underside is slightly vunerable now though, so this needs sealing/protecting from debris.

zetaboostboy522bhp

Its difficult to design a kit for FWD becuase every car is different although the engine and pump may be the same.


thats the main problem luca youve hit the nail on the head every application is different .

cheers paul

little bram

Have you got any pictures of under your car mate if you dont mind putting one up

Luca

iTrader: (2)

little bram

Alot of work has gone into that mate. All that money and its on the bottom of your engine and no one can see the work thats gone in to it.

excursion

Needs a kevlar bashplate under there, Luke!

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Have carbon/kevlar panels mounting onto the gearbox cradle, this joins to the front splitter too.

The pump/belt has an alloy cover too, all will be fitted for this year.

crazydan

im looking at bulding an engine for my project car
problem is im fitting itb's and was wanting to raise the rpm limt to around 7500-7600.
i was gonna change all seals,piston rings,timing belt,tensoners etc
but was looking at upgrading a few things to help achive the rpm i want
such as

apr main+con rod bolts,fit my tage 2 crawler cams,and adjustable cam pullys
if i did that and fitted a harmonic crank pull do you rekon this would prevent the oil pump shatering?

any other items u would sugest fitting to it aswell?

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Fit an oil pressure switch too that comes on at 20psi, will blink when on idle once hot though but will give you good warning if somethings not right when on it!

I have this fitted on mine now and wired up to a blinding bright red led bulb.

If that lights up I know to shut down ASAP.

crazydan

thats a brilliant idea

thanks

TimC

iTrader: (1)

Im sure, on a blacktop (atleast mine sat in my shed) the alternator is at the top back of the engine beside the inlet mani.
I think a dry sump pump could be mounted where the aircon pump would usually sit, similar to the location on the evo kit I posted about above which is why I suggested it in the first place.
Im not saying go out and spend 50k developing a kit like ND, but surely the design is not too far off regarding pump and sump

JonnyBravo

My mates done the same, used a fook off shift light as a warning lamp to come on at a similar pressure, atleast that way if something does go wrong you have a small chance of saving it.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

As stated in this thread, it's NOT revs that kills pumps directly. There are plenty of high spec Zetec engines running nearer 8,000rpm limits and aren't getting failiures.

Basically don't worry about pump failures unless you're going past 350bhp AND 7,200rpm.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

I'm defo going to be doing this and/or wiring up a coil pack cut off to the pressure switch too.

szabyk RST

iTrader: (1)

no chance of saving if there is a high rpm..I had two failures 8300+...
is the light of such does not help

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

That's what I was wondering...

Luca

iTrader: (2)

It may help!..

I know 3 others with shattered pumps and all they did was fit new pump and shells.


I had to fit..

Block
Pistons
Rods
Crank

I am pretty sure if I was aware of the oil pressure issue, I would have shut down sooner






I was about 7000rpm in 6th gear at the time when I noticed the standard oil pressure light on.

excursion

Ouch!

Humans can't react fast enough to a warning light when you're talking in terms of thousands of RPM. What's needed is an ignition cut driven by a low pressure switch.