chaffe

Luca, how are the pistons/bores lubricated in the dry sump set up? Cant see the oil sprayers doing it as they point to the underside of the piston crowns

Davey8oy

im fitting a pace pan and a titan pump to my mk1 fiesta, engine bay space has been a big problem

ive had to use a small alternator and had MK MOTORSPORT make me a custom 3 ribbed crank pulley and alt pulley for the job

also the alt has been moved to the back of the engine to allow fitment of pump to the front where the alternator would usually fit!

Liams

I'm sure mine did... where do yours point to?!

Liams

Sorry just re-read that, your engine lubricates in the same way! The pump is plumbed back into the main oil gallery in the block so your engine is fed in the same place as standard... just the pumps not inside anymore!

ST Turbo

Yep i did mention this a few pages back, however its difficult as say you dont really wont lower the 1.5 bar to 2 bar when your engine is on, so haveing something directly from a gauge/switch to your coil pack wouldnt work as you dont get that sort of oil pressue on cranking!

To be honest, unless your using a big turbo, like a gt35 upwards, is there any need to rev past 7200rpm? Im pretty sure mine starts dropping off at about 6800!

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

The problem is Alex capping revs at 7,000rpm with 2 bar boost on a GT30 making say 400bhp is still unknown territory for a Silvertop on standard oil pump.

Liams

To think my first failure, we got to 2.4 bar and 7.5k for all of about 10 mins lol then caboom! Would of been interesting to of known what it was making at that boost as my power figure was only at 1.7 bar! 2.4 bar was fast, i lent over to mark mapping at the time and said how strong it felt to then hear a sound like the gearbox had gone... it was mark that pointed at the oil pressure gauge

Simon, sorry didnt tex back earlier was busy then forgot!Tex is on its way!

ST Turbo

Thats fair enough, well mine will be finished in the next 3 weeks i reckon so i will let you know how much bhp a gt3076 at 2bar will make lol!

My last fiesta made 434bhp at 1.4bar on a 3071... so im thinking your going to be over the 500bhp mark! Anyways fingers crossed, i think this one is going to be a little lively with 450whp through the front wheels lol!

Saying that, mine is a blacktop...

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Bet that was lairy!

And no problem

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Don't think it will make that much power, but at least it's going through the right set of wheels so it has more chance of putting it down

You're lucky you chose a Blacktop, but you're still in unchartered waters with that kind of power on a standard pump.

Think I'm going to look into a secondary pump.

FRS#3425

I got answer from Pro Race about their ZETEC harmonic damper (http://www.pro-race.com/fordfocus.htm)...

chaffe

Your sure yours did what?

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Exactly the same way as they are with a standard oil pump.

Oil is supplied to exactly the same areas BUT without the strain on the bottom end of excess oil being stored in the sumppan.

60PSI of oil pressure pumped everywhere it needs too on the run when hot
20PSI when on idle /hot.

chaffe

the standard set up mists them with oil off the crank? just there would be a lot less oil in the crankcase on a dry sump set up no? im not sure as ive not been inside many ZT engines recently when they are running

Luca

iTrader: (2)

The jets are fed by the oil gallery as is the rest of the block.

chaffe

but they point to the underside of the crowns not the bores mate

Luca

iTrader: (2)

The sump still has oil in it... so it works in exactly the same way as any other engine would.

The only difference is about 60% of the oil for the engine is stored in an oil tank/pipes which is then pumped round the engine.

chaffe

I see, you learn something new every day

xr2wishy

iTrader: (2)

lots to think about here for slutions.
an accusump would help with pressure, but if the pump is already going it'll still be a lot of work, but should save a few quid in parts though.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

That's the problem, an Accusump isn't a solution, it just saves a bigger mess.

There's a chance once a certain level is reached that a Silvertop will pop a oil pump every time it comes on boost, kind of like how Liam found at 2.4 bar and 7500rpm.

I'm going to look into external pumps more I think.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Look at an st170 sump

thats got dry sump written allover it

zetaboostboy522bhp

the standard oil jet are feed from the oil gallaries so should be supplied with oil all the time , the oil jets are fitted to cool down the pistons not to lubricate the bores , you could run without them if you wanted like the 1.6 silvertop but theres the added advantage of cooling when running larger power and high revs.

cheers paul

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Why's that?

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Well after fitting mine and pretty much cutting the Titan one to death and re welding and plating... we looked at the st170 sump we removed and thought...
that would have worked with a little bit of fettling .

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Hmmmmmm...What's actually stopping me using a scavange pump just adapted without the need to make it 'dry' essentially? I.e. Keeping the oil in the engine?

Think I'm going to ring some people tomorrow and ask the ins and outs of dry sump kits.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Just need to make a narrow channel for the sump pan which could bolt onto the lower section of the st170 sump.. this would then, if baffled correctly, stay full of oil all the time.
Stll have to use an oil tank though to feed and drain the oil, maybe a 2 litre one as the engine would still have oil in it.

Not going to give you the full benefits of a dry sump system but it should work!

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

if you used say a 3 port scavenge pump with your inlets at different parts of the sump and baffled it should work....in theory...and you can drain it back to sump as standard. basically fitting an external oil pump and doing away with the std one...cant see any reason why this wouldnt work.

chaffe

thats what im saying.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Right looking into dry sumps a bit this morning...
I'm thinking now using a dry sump pump with a modified ST170 sump with a union in the bottom of the sump and a baffle to make sure it is always full of oil (even though it should be anyway).

Then don't use the scavange sides of the pump at all, simply use the pressure side with the feed from the union and plumbed back into the main oil pick as usual. I.e. Removing the scavange side all together and making it external pump essentially. I won't be suffering with oil surge issues anyway as the car is for street and strip, not track.

Ratty

iTrader: (1)

Simon the theory is sound, but I would do a dry run on a standard engine to test oil pressure and flow around the engine

Luca

iTrader: (2)

I patented the evolution of the st170 sump to dry sump.

Thats Ł1000 please Si.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Sadly it was your poor design that caused my engine failure.

That's Ł2000 please Luke.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Funnily enough I have a standard Zetec here...

PF Dave

Another solution for some will be what I'm about to push the button on producing at MT... a replacement set of pump internals that aren't made from cheap sintered material - it's worked if this problem has been encountered by the race guys before in other engines, so could be a much cheaper option to prevent them shattering... I'll be sticking one in my new Zetec for sure...

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

thats what i have already done for a silvertop mate if you read back early in the thread.

steve7786

iTrader: (2)

I know of a few failures on the billet gears so i don't know how the ones MT will be better?

Would love to know having had a blacktop pump go on me

szabyk RST

iTrader: (1)

the billet is broken...

can try, but it makes sense???

inis

Hi guys from the U.S.

I'm running a titan dry sump kit in a fwd platform, so far I've had no issues. But like everyone else I worry of dropping pressure and not noticing. My engine is build, and also using megasquirt. I've set up a low pressure switch (15psi or lower) to activate a audio siren, flashing LED by the gauge cluster and also cut ignition.

Because the pan is cut differently on the front side, I studded the pump.

Here is a pic of mine:



I'm running the turbo drain into the center hole on the back of the block. I've had no issue with it also.

FRS#3425

Any other suggestions of ZETEC harmonic dampers?

Thanks!

Best Regards, Per-Anders.

HockeyNomad

Well im a few months into running my engine with billet gears and new oil pump, 2Bar of boost 500bhp and red line 8400, (blacktop zetec) and aluminium flywheel,

still going strong, so im happy with that for just now,