Chip

iTrader: (3)

I'm still trying to decide on an engine to go into my clio, and although im very interested in the audi/vw 20vt i'd like something ally blocked (ie lighter) if possible.

Firstly, does anyone know of a reference of engine weights anywhere for multiple makes of car?
Bit of a long shot, but worth a try!



Apparently its possible to build an ally 20vt relatively easily using the block from a 1.6 8v golf, so thats one opion.

The modern saab 2.0 turbo is another that springs to mind (same block as the 2.2 mk4 astra)

Honda lumps look quite interesting too.

Turbo bike engines are another thing I considered but would no doubt blow the budget by the time they are on a transmission etc


Basically my requirements are:
300bhp ballpark in modified form within the budget
Decent gearbox fitted need to be in the budget (so for example with the audi lump it would be easy to use a PG1 rover box as martin sells the adaption bits for about 500+vat including the flyhweel)
Light as possible without 300bhp being too much for it cope with


Any suggestions?

I dont want the total bill for the engine and box going over 4k if possible (including clutch but excluding management as I have that, and excluding things like intercooler etc, but it DOES need to include the cost of an ATB/LSD diff)

Won't be paying labour and am obviously used to doing engine builds etc, so if its something that needs for example a set of rods to be reliable at 300bhp, then it just needs to include the cost of the rods and the gaskets etc rather than labour for someone else to fit, likewise I'll be fitting management and mapping whatever I use anyway so no need to include any costs for loom/ecu/mapping.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ps

any engine with the turbo at the back seems like a good bonus due to weight distribution, as im trying to ruin the handling of the car as little as possible while im at it!

alistairolsen

without really knowing if it will work, volvo t4 is an oddball alloy blocked choice which can be had for peanuts...

Not sure how comfortably it will do 300bhp or what it weighs though, sorry.

PS, think turbo is down the back, certainly is on the 5s. - - Edit, yes it is.

http://completed.shop.ebay.co.uk/Car...c0.m283&_rdc=1

You will probably need rods but they're not mega money:

http://kalmar-union.com/parts/volvo-s40_v40-engine/

Worth speaking to Russ first though, he may have a better/cheaper source.

Standard turbo is a nice twinscroll unit with an internal recirc on a TD04 frame, but sadly not on the ubiquitous T4 flange and too small for your uses (flat out at 240bhp) so youll need a manifold probably and something like a T5 spec TDO4 or slightly larger.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

hmm, not one I had considered, but Im quite happy to look outside the box, not interested in if its a trendy engine or not, just if its a decent one!

Ally blocked, turbo'd as standard, turbo at back, those all sound like plus points.

Do you know anything about their gearboxes, ie are they strong and are they heavy and how much is an LSD?
(im guessing you wont from how vague you are about the engine but asking in case anyone else on here does, like Russ for example!)


P.S
Its fucking scarey how little 4 grand actually is for this sort of thing, it didnt sound too bad when I first allocated the budget for this project, but its really starting to feel like fuck all now

xr2 xr2 xr2

Joe from track designs is good with these vw/Audi engines and is building one for his 4wd Ka at the mo, he might be able to advise you

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, Martin Hadland has been helpful too, and Xsport in basingstoke also know a lot about these engines as they run loads of race cars with them in and Jay from there as offered to give me some good info if I do go down that route.

thats one of the good things about these engiens, LOTS of people tuning them so its known what to do to tune them (ie standard rods are shite) which is a definate plus point, rather than finding out the hard way!

cjwood555

- EP civic Type-R motor (or a B16 with more work), blown or turbod?
- Zetec-SE / sigma, turbo'd with new rods should do it no probs and be a rev-er
- Does the 172 lump or the Williams lump not turbo well?
- Duratec turbo would do that power in that budget

...I'm struggling to think of ally-blocked engines suited to the task!

What about a toyota 1zz or 2zz from the last celica? There was a european company called 'c2 power' offering parts for turbo conversions at good prices and they made GOOD power. 2zz revs to around 9k in standard form, and includes vct and v-tec style high-lift profile swap after x-rpm.

Chris

Rax

iTrader: (1)

Any Volvo questions Chip I would speak to mad russell < I think thats right.The guy with the yellow t5
I know you know stuff but why resarch something new when you can ask a question.

xr2 xr2 xr2

He's pretty good with them I think, building a 500hp one! The one he has put in his Ka was a 250hp one out a tt with all the 4wd running gear but is not happy with it cos it's not as quick as it was before he done it!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yeah have considered that, also the type r teg lump, although weight distribution on them is on wrong side for most uk circuits (engine sits passenger side)

any links to examples?

Yes but the gearboxes are shite

What transmission would it be on?
the v6 boxes are a bit heavy and the rst ones a bit weak, any other suggestions, I dont know a lot about fwd ford options


Likewise


Nice option but I suspect it would blow the budget, will look into it though.


Thanks for the input

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, Im hoping he'll be at surrey RSOC meet tonight, he sometimes goes
If not I'll send him a message about it.

Turbosimpsons

iTrader: (3)

focus rs engine and box.

alistairolsen

Assuming parts bin commonality....

The T5 weighs 165kg including ancillaries (alt and starter but no pas or other crap) and the turbo, manifold (huge cast nonsense) etc. it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume a little more than 4/5s of this, so about 135-140kg?

The box should be the M56, which is physically bulky but otherwise a very heavily build box inside (pics in my build on VS) Russell was running standard ones until recently when he bought one brand new, unsure if its modified or not, but he was putting 500bhp through secondhand ones till the latest power increase afaik.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_M90_transmission

The T5 will do about 315ftlbs confidently (rica remap) after this peoples arses start twitching about the rods, so id guess a little lower for the T5 is the rods are similar. (different bore and stroke, unsure if rods are the same) hence my suggestion to change them.

Diffs here:

http://kalmar-union.com/parts/volvo-...-transmission/

bit more than the usual vauxhall fare but not by a lot (I suspect lack of SBS is the biggest difference!) and certainly available. Russell again might have a better source.

alistairolsen

Have a look at the mazda stable too, the duratec has a mazda flange, not a ford one.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Hmm, thats not a bad suggestion at all, and ironically even though Ive mapped them before etc wasnt something I had considered for some reason!
Although the downside to them is they are relatively heavy, and the turbo is at the front, so not really any better than say a vauxhall c20let motor which Ive got lieing around already in that respect.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for that Ali.

Didnt realise that the T4 was essentially a T5 minus a cylinder, not an engine Ive ever had dealings with.

Will definately chat to Russ about them.

alistairolsen

The very same :P They also do a 2.0lpt which *may* be worth a look if you want an unstressed donor.

The bore and stroke are actually the same, I misread 83x90mm in both cases. (1.9 t4)

http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/archiv...p/t-27700.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Modular_engine

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Wow, that looks very compact for the four cylinder lump!

Long shot but do you have a picture of it with the head off (to give an idea of block width), showing if the bores are close together or not.

*EDIT*
Just read on that link its 81mm for the 1.9 and 83mm for the 2.0 with thinner walls on the 2.0, so the 2.0 is probably the one to go for (lighter, more cc, and hopefully still strong enough for the mere 75bhp per cylinder I am after!) even though the 1.9 is favoured for massive power builds, as mine wont ever become one of those as its only a lightweight fwd trackday car so no point


How easy is 375bhp from a T5 lump? (hence 300 from 4 of the cylinders)

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

duratec would be on a fiesta st box.........a fiesta st challenge box could maybe be picked up with uprated internals...might be a tad over budget though.

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

t5 lump essentially similar to focus st and focus rs so 375 is defo doable.

alistairolsen

That's a t5 with the cooling jacket dowelled. For more pics, Russ' build thread is worth a look.

alistairolsen

Well apart from the obvious missing cylinder aye. Depends what you mean by doable, but since that's not the topic of this thread....... 300bhp is definitely possible on a limited budget however. EDIT: just seen chip's edit above.... 375 from the 5 cyl motors isnt too hard, but uncommon as it needs rods and a turbo. Most folk with 850s tend to stop before the rods, very few bother going further but that's not to say its hard.

I suspect the engines suitability will be down to the weight of the box, which I'm afraid I dont know as I never intended to keep mine

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

you should hear a N/A t5 engine....sounds awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvcv3...eature=related

alistairolsen

I'm sure Chip's will sound EXACTLY the same, even though it would be turbocharged, on a single throttle body and missing a cylinder and infact therefore sound almost exactly like every other ~2l 4 pot on the market.....

foreigneRS

but they rotate counter-clockwise which has the supposed benefit of less inertia when changing direction (opposite direction to wheels)

matts zetec s tdci

clio v6 ? just a thought i dont really no alot about engines just saw this 1 on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RENAULT-CLIO-R...#ht_988wt_1139

Chip

iTrader: (3)

V6 and lightweight tend not to go hand in hand, lol

Chip

iTrader: (3)

LOL

Yeah I would love the sound of a 300bhp TB'd 5 cylinder in there but sadly thats not an option weight wise or budget wise, so will be stuck with generic 4 cylinder turbo dullness lol.

matts zetec s tdci

lol fair enough

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Is that the 81 or 83 bore in that picture?
And are those dowels standard or a go faster mod like on the Z20LET?
If so at what power do they tend to be required?

alistairolsen

I cant confirm as I stole the pic from a rover forum where they were dicsussing block dowelling, but as its supposedly a t5 block and they were all 2.3s, I would guess its an 81mm block.

Like I said, Russ has some build pics in his thread which will tell you

http://www.migweb.co.uk/forums/proje...ml#post4184909

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Well they certainly handle well, I love driving the teg's, so im sure you are right that its a benefit

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Wow, would certainly be very thin on 83mm bore then.
So definately going to be a nice compact engine either way, so just a case of deciding if I am going to trust so little material at 75bhp per cylinder or not.

As you say, info from Russ is what I need now to investigate this one further, so hopefully i'll see him tonight.

alistairolsen

It all depends how you try and map it tbh.

Loads of people told me when I started that Id never make 400 on standard rods, and I may yet prove them right, but an n/a t5 will happily rev to 7250 from what I can find, and the RICA remap is just a chip, no internal mods, gives 315ftlbs torque and no one reports failures of rods, they all report them when they fit a bigger turbo with a bigger midrange spike (big heavy car)

I cant figure out any reason why, mapped correctlyand with the correct turbo, I cant make 300ftlbs at 7krpm (400bhp). I also strongly suspect you need a power delivery closer to what I want than what the average roadgoing t5 driver does!

My suspicion is that the rod failures are nothing to do with the power, and everything to do with crazy midrange spikes to make a 1460kg car feel fast with 350bhp.

I know the 2.5 blocks are considered weaker for big power builds, so are almost never adopted in turbocharged form and I know at around the 500bh mark Russ replaced the liners with custom ones but I really dont think you will have a problem with 300bhp and a linear torque curve

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ps
Can only find a bare on on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Volvo-99-00-1-...item1c182d390b

But its from a breakers and IME a bare engine from a breakers is normally similar price to what you can buy a complete engine from off a private person breaking a car, so am I right in thinking its only a 4-5 hundred quid engine when complete?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

315lbft * 4/5 = 252lbft


I would be quite happy with 250lbft as the ceiling TBH mate, like you say I want a near linear delivery anyway, so was planning on keeping the whole torque curve as near to 200-250 as possible even if I had an engine that could do more!

So I just need to ask Russ if 375bhp is reliable on a 2.5 basically to decide which size to go for

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

there is an issue with the liners splitting on the t5 engines at higher power and on the focus st engines so i'd say its a valid concern but maybe just under your power threshold.
not sure if there is the same issue on a t4.

you can pick the engines up cheap as not that many people are after them.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I'm sure Russ can gen me up on the sort of failures to expect as I know he has a lot of experience tuning these engines

Chip

iTrader: (3)

By the way Ali, with regards to turbos, im going to make the assumption the T4 and T5 volvo engines share the same flange, and possibly the same turbo too.

What turbo do the volvo boys use for 300, is there a standard one that does that happily?

alistairolsen

incidentally, there are a few good parts bin swaps like bigger throttle body butterdlys from n/a engines and coil on plug conversions from later cars if you want to keep it budget. You may also get lucky and find an OE cast manifold from a performance model which is good enough (depends how kind dewis is feeling I guess :P)

Yeah, Id reckon you could get a reasonable engine from that or less.

My reckoning with the locost is to buy complete 850s for around £500 and break them for half of that back, run the engine till it sticks a leg out of bed and fit another one. I guess it depends how much you care if an engine lets go vs the cost of pistons etc to do a rebuild.

For 300bhp, certainly for an initial stab at it, Id be lapping the valves and leaving the head, leaving the pistons and rings but perhaps if I was feeling that way inclined fitting rods and big ends, swap the head gasket and fit the engine. Fit the COP conversion, 960TB, new exhaust manifold and turbo and then map it and cross my fingers.