Still trying to choose an engine and box (4K budget), also engine weights reference?
05-01-2011, 09:31 AM
#121
Well Ive driven and owned teg type r's so I know the diff works well and the change is nice, and ive seen plenty of them manage trackday abuse well on 300bhp or so too.
Not thinking they are idesctructable but certainly a LOT better than the clio box which im trying to avoid (hence looking for an engine swap) which ive personally borken about half a dozen of in the last couple of years with only 170bhp.
Most of the turbo engines are shite cause they arent mapped properly.
Weight in front of the wheels for the engine itself seems to be less than just about any other engine if its only 160kg in total for the engine and box, my clio engine and box is more like 185kg.
turbo does sit forward, but its only a few kg, so although its a bad thing, its not the end of the world.
Not thinking they are idesctructable but certainly a LOT better than the clio box which im trying to avoid (hence looking for an engine swap) which ive personally borken about half a dozen of in the last couple of years with only 170bhp.
Millions of import type R's over here most are been broken due to either knackered box' bottom ends or drinking more oil than petrol even the turbo ones ive been in have been less than impressive nothing till well over 5k revs probably not best for track toy and you'll end up with a lot of weight infront of the wheels
Weight in front of the wheels for the engine itself seems to be less than just about any other engine if its only 160kg in total for the engine and box, my clio engine and box is more like 185kg.
turbo does sit forward, but its only a few kg, so although its a bad thing, its not the end of the world.
05-01-2011, 09:38 AM
#122
I still think the VAG engine is the better choice, there's no way I'd be sticking a turbo'd Honda in our yellow car! Isn't the Honda a vertical engine? The VAG has the turbo on the rear and still leans backwards. I bet the Honda is a bit like the Rover T series where it sits will forwards when looking at engine location compared with strut tops.
Last edited by Martin-Hadland; 05-01-2011 at 09:40 AM.
05-01-2011, 09:38 AM
#123
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
I know all about renault boxes chip me mate makes a living rebuilding and ya they really dont like sticky tyres
not sure about weights but id say 160kg is a bit light and what i ment by weight is they seem to sit more upright and more ahead of center line than other engines
height may be slight issue too newer ones are tall enough had some of these problems fitting one in a starlet hotrod
not sure about weights but id say 160kg is a bit light and what i ment by weight is they seem to sit more upright and more ahead of center line than other engines
height may be slight issue too newer ones are tall enough had some of these problems fitting one in a starlet hotrod
05-01-2011, 09:39 AM
#124
10K+ Poster!!
As for what Martin said, he is right, the Hondas may use a alloy block but they are far from light !
05-01-2011, 09:46 AM
#125
I still think the VAG engine is the better choice, there's no way I'd be sticking a turbo'd Honda in our yellow car! Isn't the Honda a vertical engine? The VAG has the turbo on the rear and still leans backwards. I bet the Honda is a bit like the Rover T series where it sits will forwards when looking at engine location compared with strut tops.
We've got a teg type R over at the farm where my workshop is with my blue clio in currently, so I will have a measure up relative to the driveshaft centre line (as thats what is going to dictate engine position).
This picture gives a good idea of how little space there is in front of my existing williams engine, even though its already leant back quite a long way.
Last edited by Chip; 05-01-2011 at 09:49 AM.
05-01-2011, 09:53 AM
#126
Yes the extent to which they sit forwards relative to the original renault engine is definately a potential issue.
We've got a teg type R over at the farm where my workshop is with my blue clio in currently, so I will have a measure up relative to the driveshaft centre line (as thats what is going to dictate engine position).
This picture gives a good idea of how little space there is in front of my existing williams engine, even though its already leant back quite a long way.
We've got a teg type R over at the farm where my workshop is with my blue clio in currently, so I will have a measure up relative to the driveshaft centre line (as thats what is going to dictate engine position).
This picture gives a good idea of how little space there is in front of my existing williams engine, even though its already leant back quite a long way.
Edited to say I've just read your text and it does lean back.
05-01-2011, 09:58 AM
#127
Yeah I reckon that if it was sat upright I would lose probably in the region of 2", which when you only have a gap about 8" wide in the first place, is a big issue potentially.
On the other hand, at least i'd stand a chance of working down the back of the engine, which is a total cunt at the moment
If the engine sits forward more, but is 25kg lighter, the handling probably wont really be effected much either way as the two will cancel out to a certain extent, but will definately need to measure up and should then be able to decide fair easily if its a go'er or not.
I suspect you are correct though that it might not be
On the other hand, at least i'd stand a chance of working down the back of the engine, which is a total cunt at the moment
If the engine sits forward more, but is 25kg lighter, the handling probably wont really be effected much either way as the two will cancel out to a certain extent, but will definately need to measure up and should then be able to decide fair easily if its a go'er or not.
I suspect you are correct though that it might not be
05-01-2011, 03:06 PM
#129
The K seems to sit back quite a lot.
Interestingly a mate of mine who is into hondas reckons that on the honda forums people claim the K is lighter than the B, which contradicts what is said in this thread.
will have to try and find a reliable weight out for the K.
downside of the K is that it doesnt have a LSD as standard but they are readily available aftermarket.
05-01-2011, 04:50 PM
#132
dont bother with the 1zz or 2zz toyota celica engines,my brother has killed one engine a year for the last 3 years!he's on his last rebuild before he calls it a day,but the std oil system is crap and requires a fair amount of work to make it reliable on track.
listen to the engine change note at 8:38
was the same weekend you were at the ring
http://vimeo.com/12029423
listen to the engine change note at 8:38
was the same weekend you were at the ring
http://vimeo.com/12029423
05-01-2011, 05:00 PM
#134
10K+ Poster!!
dont bother with the 1zz or 2zz toyota celica engines,my brother has killed one engine a year for the last 3 years!he's on his last rebuild before he calls it a day,but the std oil system is crap and requires a fair amount of work to make it reliable on track.
listen to the engine change note at 8:38
was the same weekend you were at the ring
http://vimeo.com/12029423
listen to the engine change note at 8:38
was the same weekend you were at the ring
http://vimeo.com/12029423
Just as bloody well that didn't let go all over the circuit as that would of caused some grip issues for others
05-01-2011, 05:04 PM
#135
PassionFord Post Whore!!
i know of a k series engine in a jazz so if it fit in that im sure it will be no problem in a clio.
can you not also use the bottom end of a crv engine with the type r heads and it makes it a 2.4
can you not also use the bottom end of a crv engine with the type r heads and it makes it a 2.4
05-01-2011, 05:05 PM
#136
Testing the future
even if the honda is vertical in hondas, does that mean you have would have to mount it vertically? unless the oilways dictate it, you could also cant it backwards if that helps.
05-01-2011, 05:06 PM
#137
dont bother with the 1zz or 2zz toyota celica engines,my brother has killed one engine a year for the last 3 years!he's on his last rebuild before he calls it a day,but the std oil system is crap and requires a fair amount of work to make it reliable on track.
listen to the engine change note at 8:38
was the same weekend you were at the ring
http://vimeo.com/12029423
listen to the engine change note at 8:38
was the same weekend you were at the ring
http://vimeo.com/12029423
05-01-2011, 05:10 PM
#138
chip:
i just saw someone recommend it on pg1 and you were saying it might not be bad.just thought id help a little
he spilt a fair bit of coolant but not too bad,he coasted to within a few hundred feet of the exit,cost him 300 euros to get towed out!!!!!!!!!
its a pity theyre so unreliable as they go like fuck,think he was on for a 8 minute flat lap that time,engine is completely std bar a filter and full interior in the car!
the guy commenting about the "could just be a pipe" is a mate and doesnt know anything about cars,he had heard my boost pipe pop off earlier that day and thought it sounded the same.
my brother swore he heard the noise and turned off immediately,the video showed how time can be obscured when youre in panic mode
i just saw someone recommend it on pg1 and you were saying it might not be bad.just thought id help a little
its a pity theyre so unreliable as they go like fuck,think he was on for a 8 minute flat lap that time,engine is completely std bar a filter and full interior in the car!
the guy commenting about the "could just be a pipe" is a mate and doesnt know anything about cars,he had heard my boost pipe pop off earlier that day and thought it sounded the same.
my brother swore he heard the noise and turned off immediately,the video showed how time can be obscured when youre in panic mode
05-01-2011, 05:17 PM
#140
plus the diff may end up too low
05-01-2011, 05:28 PM
#142
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08-01-2011, 04:13 PM
#143
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Decided to search for this after speaking with you earlier.
Standard C4 and ITR rods are the same, few variations here and there but nothing that will effect you/strength. Pistons lend themselves to turbo in c4 as there lower comp. 300hp will be fine, 400 is doable for straight line stuff.
You can rev to 8400 on a stock c4 without any issues, rod bolts/head won't like anything over 8700, but theres no need to rev that high.
Sounds like it had aftermarket liners, WAY overkill for the power, and usually like I always say, keep things simple, the stock liners would have been fine at that power. It probably did have tophat liners, but there are 2 deck surfaces with them, and probably only seated on 1. Anyway thats for another topic.
Boxes are good, the C4 flywheel weighs a lot though, I didn't include this in the weights I gave (sorry) i'd replace with an aftermarket 5kg flywheel, and clutch while your at it. This will get you to the weight I said.
Actually I think the head would be fine, the engine has got "cam ladders" with little oil holes, each cam lobe gets a small jet of oil, you'd have no oiling issues, but as you say the diff might give you the issue alone with the sump. A few degree's either way would be fine.
Another thing to note is they flow massive air, so spool is excellent, with an Evo turbo they spool earlier than an evo and make more power on lower boost.
A couple of graphs (stock engines)
Heres a b16 turbo with an Evo setup, boost control was set to drive well on the road with max traction, power/torque drops a little as it hits vtec, this minimises wheelspin, (no lsd and crap suspension setup). Also pulled the boost control at the rev limiter to stop it sitting on the limiter when wheelspinning.
Still you can see, excellent spool on the Evo turbo, 3500rpm's for full boost with no extra gain from the boost controller.
416hp, (was an overlay against his previous car, (ITR, with big cam's breather mods etc, he actually spent less on the turbo build)
It was running 1 bar of boost on a borg warner turbo (GT40 sized) 2.5 exhaust held back power. Note the difference in the 2 torque curves from the bottom end. Was built around 18 months ago and still going strong today.
Another B16 standard engine, mapped "normally" at 10psi (evo turbo)
So what would I need to do for 300bhp?
Only B18 Ive ever owned is this one:
So as you can imagine I dont know much about turboing them as I went down the lag route instead
Standard rods in the type r were very good though, how do the C4 ones compare?
I'll obviously need exhaust manifold turbo and downpipe etc, inlet looks ok though (or will the ITR one fit?) what about pistons, are they silly high CR like the ITR or can I get away with a reasonable amount of boost on the standard internals if I use a big turbo so its mainly at the top end (ie not much torque)
If standard internals are happy at 270 for example, I wouldnt worry about the 300 target enough to pull it apart just for 30bhp, I was only quoting a ballpark not an exact figure.
Are they on solids still like the B18C5 in the teg?
Only B18 Ive ever owned is this one:
So as you can imagine I dont know much about turboing them as I went down the lag route instead
Standard rods in the type r were very good though, how do the C4 ones compare?
I'll obviously need exhaust manifold turbo and downpipe etc, inlet looks ok though (or will the ITR one fit?) what about pistons, are they silly high CR like the ITR or can I get away with a reasonable amount of boost on the standard internals if I use a big turbo so its mainly at the top end (ie not much torque)
If standard internals are happy at 270 for example, I wouldnt worry about the 300 target enough to pull it apart just for 30bhp, I was only quoting a ballpark not an exact figure.
Are they on solids still like the B18C5 in the teg?
Wiki has good overview info on the B series engines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_B_engine
8100rpm and 10:1 compression on the one ricky is recomending, so it looks really suitable for a low boost high rpm screamer of a motor which would be ideal, thats almost as high as my nova revved and thats the standard limiter so im sure a couple hundred more can be had if required!
3071 on a .82 housing or something like that and keep the boost moderate and I reckon it could be REALLY good.
Bit worried about where the fuck the turbo would go though, the front of a clio bay is bloody tiny, probably need to mount it over the gearbox or something like that! At least that would move the weight back too, lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_B_engine
8100rpm and 10:1 compression on the one ricky is recomending, so it looks really suitable for a low boost high rpm screamer of a motor which would be ideal, thats almost as high as my nova revved and thats the standard limiter so im sure a couple hundred more can be had if required!
3071 on a .82 housing or something like that and keep the boost moderate and I reckon it could be REALLY good.
Bit worried about where the fuck the turbo would go though, the front of a clio bay is bloody tiny, probably need to mount it over the gearbox or something like that! At least that would move the weight back too, lol
I've saw one turbo'd B18 in a civic, was pushing something like 340@wheels on 1.5 bar (I think, it was a while ago and we were pretty impressed with the power vs boost!)
It didn't last long though, wether it was due to being built incorrect or what I don't know but a liner dropped and that was the end of that. A liner with a top hat machined into it would solve that no prob though!
There's also the SR20DE/DET from the pulsar/200sx, all ally block.
It didn't last long though, wether it was due to being built incorrect or what I don't know but a liner dropped and that was the end of that. A liner with a top hat machined into it would solve that no prob though!
There's also the SR20DE/DET from the pulsar/200sx, all ally block.
Well Ive driven and owned teg type r's so I know the diff works well and the change is nice, and ive seen plenty of them manage trackday abuse well on 300bhp or so too.
Not thinking they are idesctructable but certainly a LOT better than the clio box which im trying to avoid (hence looking for an engine swap) which ive personally borken about half a dozen of in the last couple of years with only 170bhp.
Most of the turbo engines are shite cause they arent mapped properly.
Weight in front of the wheels for the engine itself seems to be less than just about any other engine if its only 160kg in total for the engine and box, my clio engine and box is more like 185kg.
turbo does sit forward, but its only a few kg, so although its a bad thing, its not the end of the world.
Not thinking they are idesctructable but certainly a LOT better than the clio box which im trying to avoid (hence looking for an engine swap) which ive personally borken about half a dozen of in the last couple of years with only 170bhp.
Most of the turbo engines are shite cause they arent mapped properly.
Weight in front of the wheels for the engine itself seems to be less than just about any other engine if its only 160kg in total for the engine and box, my clio engine and box is more like 185kg.
turbo does sit forward, but its only a few kg, so although its a bad thing, its not the end of the world.
Another thing to note is they flow massive air, so spool is excellent, with an Evo turbo they spool earlier than an evo and make more power on lower boost.
A couple of graphs (stock engines)
Heres a b16 turbo with an Evo setup, boost control was set to drive well on the road with max traction, power/torque drops a little as it hits vtec, this minimises wheelspin, (no lsd and crap suspension setup). Also pulled the boost control at the rev limiter to stop it sitting on the limiter when wheelspinning.
Still you can see, excellent spool on the Evo turbo, 3500rpm's for full boost with no extra gain from the boost controller.
416hp, (was an overlay against his previous car, (ITR, with big cam's breather mods etc, he actually spent less on the turbo build)
It was running 1 bar of boost on a borg warner turbo (GT40 sized) 2.5 exhaust held back power. Note the difference in the 2 torque curves from the bottom end. Was built around 18 months ago and still going strong today.
Another B16 standard engine, mapped "normally" at 10psi (evo turbo)
Last edited by RickyLee53; 08-01-2011 at 04:15 PM.
08-01-2011, 04:20 PM
#144
Considering that my ideal target for being quick but also driving nicely would be a flat torque curve at 200lbft and enough revs to make 300bhp that last example really is exactly what I'm after.
Give me a few months to finish some other projects and I'll be in touch about a manifold.
Thanks for your time on the phone earlier, very interesting!
Give me a few months to finish some other projects and I'll be in touch about a manifold.
Thanks for your time on the phone earlier, very interesting!
10-01-2011, 07:35 PM
#145
PassionFord Post Whore!!
chip have you decided on the engine you are wanting for your clio yet?
I am busting my ibiza cupra and would like to sell the running gear as a whole package or event he car as a whole if your interested, the motor is a decent spec with around 350bhp running on dta managment. Pm me if your interested
I am busting my ibiza cupra and would like to sell the running gear as a whole package or event he car as a whole if your interested, the motor is a decent spec with around 350bhp running on dta managment. Pm me if your interested
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