Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ps

going back to cams/solids

The T4 boys saying that N/A cams cant go into the later engines are doign so cause of the VVT, but I wonder if you can just sack the VVT off and use the later head with the earlier N/A cams and the later solid lifters.

alistairolsen

well there is, run the laguna box and the clio shafts at a guess but the box is a bag of wank.

A mate of mine had a volvo 1.7t powered clio (renault block) and I know the 960 had an audi derived derv and I seem to recall seeing an audi 5 pot one somewhere.

I suspect however, if the M56 box isnt too heavy then youre best of keeping that and getting new shafts made.

alistairolsen

I suspect so, but no way of knowing without trying. Get the engine on on std cams etc, you can always swap them out later, or the whole head. Have a read on the construction of the whiteblock though, the head is conventional, but the cam cover carried the caps in a one piece casting......

The crank case is conventional alloy linered fare, but the lower crankcase is like a mains caps and girdle casting all in one piece between the cylinder block and the sump. It's a really nice design, just a shame about the rods.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

T5 box certainly would be strong enough as an upgrade option too I guess.

Yeah if I go this route I'll put a standard engine in to begin with, even 250bhp would be good fun initially, solve all the other problems first like getting it to handle, then revisit the engine later on. (same im doing with the nova, im gathering bits at the moment for the next engine but will carry on with the standard saab one for now)

Chip

iTrader: (3)

rods are a lot easier to change than to retrofit a girdle!

Lambchop

iTrader: (1)

If you were Spiky size then you'd maybe match him on the straights. It's just like he drives an empty car


Yeah it's cool mate. No offence but noone would imagine such a wealth of volvo knowledge!

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

what you want to get chip is a shaftec catalogue...gives you all splines,lengths of shafts etc. i am using it to find shafts for my grasser....ford bc box to cossie outers...astra diesel and cavvy 2l shafts from 91 are correct splines/length. so its possible there is a shaft that will do the job.

alistairolsen

The T5 is on the M56 too, so that's why Im saying keep it

yeah, might be worth dropping the management in and whatever turbo and manifold you want ultimately for two reasons, saves you doing loom and downpipe twice and also means you can map it to have reasonable top end and no "wheelspin spike"

Oh I agree, just a shame the engine isnt good for 500 on a standard bottom end like some. Sadly with the advent of proper analysis, if the engine is built for 225bhp, you wont find many able to do 300 safely nowadays if the manufacturers can save 20g of metal and be confident of no warranty issues.

LMFAO

None taken mate, didnt mean it like that, Ive been amazed in the past how much the user body on many forums know about utterly random stuff!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes I definately need to get hold of one of those at some point! Definately useful info to know.

Like for example, I found (by trying cause I had them sat in front of me) that saab shafts even though they have different CVs that cant be used with a vauxhall drive flange have the right splines to fit onto vauxhall CVs, so I have managed to use a combination of saab and vauxhall parts on my nova to get a working solution
Its not just cheaper than custom made shafts, it also means if you brake one you dont have to wait for more to be made, you just go down a scrapyard!

BlueSmoke

1. Anything's possible!

2. I don't know much about your Clio, so wasn't sure if you'd turned it into a mid engined monster like the Nova or not.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

No mate, this new clio is just a typical little FWD trackday car essentially.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

With regards to these volvo engines, there is also a 2.0T but NOT a T4 variant by the looks of it, and as far as I can tell, it would appear that other than management difference and the turbo etc, this is essentially the same engine, so another potential donor if Im going to use a different turbo at some point anyway.

alistairolsen

see p1

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Lol for me indeed!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ali, I notice that your T5 lump has a dizzy on the engine.
Is there a phase sensor in it (like a c20xe) or does it run solely off the crank sensor (like a renault f7r)

Im guessing its an SFI engine? and if so must use some sort of phase sensor?

RickyLee53

Not read all the thread but i'd say Honda engine would be a good bet.

You can get a b18c4 for with everything for Ł600 ish. LSD gearbox as standard, weight is around 160kg's with gearbox inlet etc, 100kg's engine on its own (ally block) Good for 300+hp when turbo'd) LOTS of off the shelf parts.

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

I might have a 400bhp+ zetec turbo for sale soon for 4k, ill even throw in the fly/clutch and T5 FOC!

alistairolsen

Thephase sensor is on the other camshaft behind what looks like an alloy blanking plug.

My plan is to get another phase sensor and swap it for the dizzy when I move to COP ignition (having gutted the contents first) so I can get the engine right back in the car.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Which car is the c4 from? Is that a teg gsr?

And have you any links to engine and box for sale?

When I hear B18 I think ITR, and those are about 3 times that if not more for engine and box normally from what I have seen.


EDIT
Civic vti 1.8 it would appear from searching, 180bhp standard?
Didnt know they had a lsd too.

That does sound like a VERY good option then, although still got the annoying problem of wrong side of the car and turbo hanging out the front, but thats a hell of a light weight 160 all in, probably about 25 less than the williams engine and box!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

WOW

Good call Ricky!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HONDA-CIVIC-VT...item27b6d19b7e

Chip

iTrader: (3)

So what would I need to do for 300bhp?

Only B18 Ive ever owned is this one:


So as you can imagine I dont know much about turboing them as I went down the lag route instead

Standard rods in the type r were very good though, how do the C4 ones compare?

I'll obviously need exhaust manifold turbo and downpipe etc, inlet looks ok though (or will the ITR one fit?) what about pistons, are they silly high CR like the ITR or can I get away with a reasonable amount of boost on the standard internals if I use a big turbo so its mainly at the top end (ie not much torque)

If standard internals are happy at 270 for example, I wouldnt worry about the 300 target enough to pull it apart just for 30bhp, I was only quoting a ballpark not an exact figure.

Are they on solids still like the B18C5 in the teg?

wirralphil

Chip couldn't you add some extra ballast to the rear, as in battery screen washer etc to aid balance?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

No because:
A) it would make my car heavier
B) it wouldnt stop me having too much weight too far in front of the front wheels, any weight stuck that far out acts with a lot more inertia when you try and change direction quickly, extra weight at the back wont help that.

Dlatch!

interesting thread
amazed at how cheap the T4 volvo's can be had
the honda option is also very interesting too

while checking volvo prices i found this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1996-VOLVO-850...#ht_500wt_1156

would be a hoot on track

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Wiki has good overview info on the B series engines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_B_engine

8100rpm and 10:1 compression on the one ricky is recomending, so it looks really suitable for a low boost high rpm screamer of a motor which would be ideal, thats almost as high as my nova revved and thats the standard limiter so im sure a couple hundred more can be had if required!

3071 on a .82 housing or something like that and keep the boost moderate and I reckon it could be REALLY good.
Bit worried about where the fuck the turbo would go though, the front of a clio bay is bloody tiny, probably need to mount it over the gearbox or something like that! At least that would move the weight back too, lol

CalibreDan

I was going to say go with a B18 and use one of Ricky's turbo kits (Ł1450. Includes Manifold, downpipe, rebuilt Evo turbo, intercooler and oil/water lines). Standard bottom end would be perfectly fine at 300bhp, hes done a 416bhp on a 140,000 standard engine.

Should have enough budget left over after buying the engine/box/turbo bits to get injectors etc.

His kit seems pretty damn good, can imagine it'd be quite a decent drive being high comp on the Evo turbo and twin scroll. Not sure what room you'd end up with but this is how it sits...



Worst comes to the worse there's no end of different manifolds that could be used to gain some space.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

got a spare set of 1000cc injectors so ok for that bit at least. lol

I really do think I'd have to put the turbo over the gearbox to fit it though!

Evo turbo would be a good option, t3 flange even better though from my point of view as ive got loads of t3 flanged turbos lieing around anyway plus loads of GT etc available.
Got a spare 38mm tial somewhere too, but would prefer to go to the v band type if I go external gate

Will have to have a chat to ricky about if he has done one over the box before or not.


T4 option still seems better in terms of turbo placement, but the honda has one thing it doesnt: REVS!

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

for your 4k budget i'm quite sure ricky would do you an over the box trick manifold

vroooom ptssssh

I've saw one turbo'd B18 in a civic, was pushing something like 340@wheels on 1.5 bar (I think, it was a while ago and we were pretty impressed with the power vs boost!)
It didn't last long though, wether it was due to being built incorrect or what I don't know but a liner dropped and that was the end of that. A liner with a top hat machined into it would solve that no prob though!

There's also the SR20DE/DET from the pulsar/200sx, all ally block.

turbotoaster

first thing that sprang to mind on the first page is a K-series honda engine.

2.0 alloy block, awesome flowing head, decently strong bottom end

it has the turbo at the back like you requested and it also revs very well(9krpm)

if you search around im sure you can come across one.

that would be my suggestion

c20tbo

iTrader: (1)

Chip,

What about a pug 106 gti 1.6 16v engine turbo'd, they seem to produce good figures on stock engines turbo'd also seem reliable and probably light weight?? and the best bit easily sourced and very cheap!

Pretty sure it will fit nicely in a clio bay aswell with relitave ease.

Joshy

cvh turbo

CalibreDan

Another good suggestion, rods are good for 400bhp apparently, pistons a little less. DP like to use decomp plates on standard engines for 300bhp but I'm sure you could achieve that without needing one TBH.

Another issue is the plastic inlet, most TU5J4 turbo builds I've seen have been big budget ones done by people that throw money at someone and hence they always end up with a custom DP inlet etc so not all too sure how they hold up, sure they'd be fine though!

Fantastic strong engines all in, miss my GTi!

foreigneRS

even if you use a civic radiator that is only half width so that the turbo could sit right in the front grille area? not great for handling in theory as you say, and don't know if a standard civic rad would be good enough for that power on track.

when matey above talks about ballast in the rear, he doesn't mean ballast - he just means moving existing stuff from the front to the rear, but that's probably something you've already done or would do anyway.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Those Pug gearboxes arent very good IME.

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

The K20 Honda engine you're talking about, is that the CTR engine from 2001 onwards? If so for an alloy blocked engine its pretty heavy, I know because I used to buy them in for a kit car company and sometimes had to lug them around. They also have a habit of spinning big end bearings, not sure why.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Was looking at those last night as well, and also the F20C (which is expensive but awesome and can be fitted fairly easy to a fwd honda box as its a common conversion)
Not sure on physical space for the K20 though they look quite big, but I couldnt find any figures.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Quiet happy to get a custom rad made TBH, but there isnt a lot of front area on the clio in the first place sadly and a lot of it is shielded by the front bulkhead etc.
Fair point though that if I can keep the turbo to one side and the rad to the other it might make it possible and at least it would totally avoid direct heat soak between the two.

Manifold like this looks like it would sit the turbo very close to the block, and although its not equal length ive certainly seen FAR worse manage to flow 300bhp no problem so im sure it would be fit for purpose, never going to crack either being cast.

(Its upside down in that picture, ie the T3 flange points downwards and the turbo sits over to the right, which would be what you wanted if trying to run a rad only on the left)

Here is a similar one installed (seems to sit a little more to left but you get the idea)

Possibly more space could be saved with the turbo flipped 180 degrees although that will then make the downpipe more awkward to sort.


Yeah thats just part of the build anyway TBH, like on my blue one the battery is under the boot for example.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Christ the parts are cheap for those honda engines.

Aftermarket ally inlet for example, 100 quid:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Honda-Civic-de...item1c1858e524

(was thinking might not have enough space for standard one as back of bas is tight too)

caprizetec170

Think you've all been overrating honda engines and boxes. Millions of import type R's
over here most are been broken due to either knackered box' bottom ends or drinking more oil than petrol even the turbo ones ive been in have been less than impressive nothing till well over 5k revs probably not best for track toy and you'll end up with a lot of weight infront of the wheels