Mapping help please
14-09-2010, 10:35 PM
#41
Something for you to think about in the morning Gareth. You could map to MBT and RBT or you could take it to the point of det and back off a bit and then run a leaner mixture. Both cars would probably put out the same power, both cars would have acceptable EGT's. Which one is the right answer?
cheers danny
14-09-2010, 10:40 PM
#42
Professional Waffler
I agree in theory your right but lets say 3 people tune the same car from scratch but they all have different results 1, is very quick and great on fuel 2, is very quick and feels a bit quicker at the top end but is shit on fuel 3,this one feels awesome and you really cant fault it ...
They all have different results so what ones right?????
It will all depend on the person who drives its opinion, unless theres something really obviously wrong its all down to 50% fact and 50% opinion..imo that is..
cheers danny
They all have different results so what ones right?????
It will all depend on the person who drives its opinion, unless theres something really obviously wrong its all down to 50% fact and 50% opinion..imo that is..
cheers danny
that sentence should of ended it after that naughty sixth word again LOL LOL
and the answer to your question is the one which suits what the customer asked for!!!
right another situation here, im the long lost bastard son of bill gates, now bill gates has popped it, and ive ended up with all his money and im a bit doolayey-tip, i got 100 engines here, they are all exactly the same, even down to a atomic level. and a tanker of the same fuel.
now i give 33 engines to you danny, 33 to mark, 33 to mclaren F1 (the last one is just for me as i like to lick it in my spare time)
now my briefing to you all is "i want you to get as much power from these bitches as possible, but you aint allowed to touch the engine in any way"
now you all got unlimited cash (curtsey of my long gone daddy) you can hire whoever you like, have the best dynos in the world (with 100% repeatability)
now you come back to me in years to come, will the maps look the same,, and if not why not?
14-09-2010, 10:42 PM
#43
10K+ Poster!!
iTrader: (4)
The proof is in the pudding though...
If you can run your car say at 12.5 afr for example with no det and make more power then why isnt it????
Imo you can run around that afr and improve power and fuel economy as well as injector duty so a no brainer really???
cheers danny
If you can run your car say at 12.5 afr for example with no det and make more power then why isnt it????
Imo you can run around that afr and improve power and fuel economy as well as injector duty so a no brainer really???
cheers danny
lol
14-09-2010, 10:43 PM
#44
Professional Waffler
Something for you to think about in the morning Gareth. You could map to MBT and RBT or you could take it to the point of det and back off a bit and then run a leaner mixture. Both cars would probably put out the same power, both cars would have acceptable EGT's. Which one is the right answer?
Last edited by GARETH T; 14-09-2010 at 10:45 PM.
14-09-2010, 10:46 PM
#45
dont tempt me mate its in my mind to get her on your rollers and see what gains would be made by leaning her out abit and chucking more boost in ! but its been faultless and taken all the abuse ive chucked at it and not bated an eyelid and im worried that could change lol
lolAnd as iv said if we cant get any more power safely for you you dont pay!!!
cheers danny
14-09-2010, 10:50 PM
#46
that sentence should of ended it after that naughty sixth word again LOL LOL
and the answer to your question is the one which suits what the customer asked for!!!
right another situation here, im the long lost bastard son of bill gates, now bill gates has popped it, and ive ended up with all his money and im a bit doolayey-tip, i got 100 engines here, they are all exactly the same, even down to a atomic level. and a tanker of the same fuel.
now i give 33 engines to you danny, 33 to mark, 33 to mclaren F1 (the last one is just for me as i like to lick it in my spare time)
now my briefing to you all is "i want you to get as much power from these bitches as possible, but you aint allowed to touch the engine in any way"
now you all got unlimited cash (curtsey of my long gone daddy) you can hire whoever you like, have the best dynos in the world (with 100% repeatability)
now you come back to me in years to come, will the maps look the same,, and if not why not?
and the answer to your question is the one which suits what the customer asked for!!!
right another situation here, im the long lost bastard son of bill gates, now bill gates has popped it, and ive ended up with all his money and im a bit doolayey-tip, i got 100 engines here, they are all exactly the same, even down to a atomic level. and a tanker of the same fuel.
now i give 33 engines to you danny, 33 to mark, 33 to mclaren F1 (the last one is just for me as i like to lick it in my spare time)
now my briefing to you all is "i want you to get as much power from these bitches as possible, but you aint allowed to touch the engine in any way"
now you all got unlimited cash (curtsey of my long gone daddy) you can hire whoever you like, have the best dynos in the world (with 100% repeatability)
now you come back to me in years to come, will the maps look the same,, and if not why not?
cheers danny
14-09-2010, 10:57 PM
#47
I find it a bit scarey seeing people quote AFRs to map to which they think apply to ALL engines.
IME different engines work better at different AFR's, and if im in any doubt i'd sooner be the rich side of just right than the lean side.
My first pass through on mapping a car will always be a footballer map.
IME different engines work better at different AFR's, and if im in any doubt i'd sooner be the rich side of just right than the lean side.
My first pass through on mapping a car will always be a footballer map.
14-09-2010, 11:01 PM
#48
Professional Waffler
right the aerospace industry is up in arms, as they have found out that turbine engines give people AIDS. so they have had to revert back to the good old piston engine, now do you think these engineers will be sat round saying "i think that ignition should be backed off a bit more" and "its not at 11.6:1 yet"? lol
14-09-2010, 11:03 PM
#49
I find it a bit scarey seeing people quote AFRs to map to which they think apply to ALL engines.
IME different engines work better at different AFR's, and if im in any doubt i'd sooner be the rich side of just right than the lean side.
My first pass through on mapping a car will always be a footballer map.
IME different engines work better at different AFR's, and if im in any doubt i'd sooner be the rich side of just right than the lean side.
My first pass through on mapping a car will always be a footballer map.
And yes right up in the rev range and on full boost i will always leave a little extra fuel in there and as youve said some engines do prefer to run richer than others and vice versa..
cheers danny
14-09-2010, 11:06 PM
#50
right the aerospace industry is up in arms, as they have found out that turbine engines give people AIDS. so they have had to revert back to the good old piston engine, now do you think these engineers will be sat round saying "i think that ignition should be backed off a bit more" and "its not at 11.6:1 yet"? lol
cheers danny
14-09-2010, 11:33 PM
#58
PassionFord Post Troll
Loving this thread, keep it coming just one quick question.
i'm sure i've come across these before but cant remember them, whats MBT and RBT??
i'm sure i've come across these before but cant remember them, whats MBT and RBT??
14-09-2010, 11:54 PM
#61
cheers danny
14-09-2010, 11:57 PM
#62
I like the tractive effort screen too but its easy to get too much heat into the engine if you spend long on a held rpm value at full throttle so you need to use it sparingly.
Awesome for part throttle stuff though where you have all the time in the world
Awesome for part throttle stuff though where you have all the time in the world
15-09-2010, 12:08 AM
#63
cheers danny
15-09-2010, 12:27 AM
#64
PassionFord Post Troll
so how do you map to these points when live mapping??
or do you map to these points on rolling road and then tweek the map on a live map session going on how the car feels and mapping to a pre-determined afr and alter the ignition timing listening out for det preferably using det cans??
or do you map to these points on rolling road and then tweek the map on a live map session going on how the car feels and mapping to a pre-determined afr and alter the ignition timing listening out for det preferably using det cans??
15-09-2010, 12:31 AM
#65
Live mapping on the road you will never find these points realistically unless its on a knock limited engine (like most YBs) as then MBT is just the point with most ignition possible without det.
I like live mapping for turbos where im rarely chasing every last bhp and just care how it drives and that its safe, for N/A though, rollers are king
I like live mapping for turbos where im rarely chasing every last bhp and just care how it drives and that its safe, for N/A though, rollers are king
15-09-2010, 12:39 AM
#66
PassionFord Post Troll
wouldnt that be classed as MAXIMUM advance best torque??
i can see that being the realisticly acheivable one though aswell as tweeking the afr to alter the way the car drives unless realistically thats not going to make much difference when playing it safe.
i can see that being the realisticly acheivable one though aswell as tweeking the afr to alter the way the car drives unless realistically thats not going to make much difference when playing it safe.
15-09-2010, 06:09 AM
#68
sport ka.....
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Right while we're all arguing the right way to do the same end idea, can anyone help me! I want to know can I run my Zetec turbo on a Zetec ecu and obviously remap it or do I have to change to rs turbo ecu ofab,etc?! Iv seen st fez's running off remapped standard ecu's, I know they are slightly different but the principle of using the standard ecu is the same. Cheers guys
15-09-2010, 07:34 AM
#69
PassionFord Post Troll
Dans prob is he is running 680 cc injectors on a map designed for stock zetec ones.
I should imagine some fairly drastic re scalling of his fuel map would get him running better.
Dan, just as a trial knock a third off all the fuelling figures (not sure what DTA use) before 3k rpm and see if it runs better.
I should imagine some fairly drastic re scalling of his fuel map would get him running better.
Dan, just as a trial knock a third off all the fuelling figures (not sure what DTA use) before 3k rpm and see if it runs better.
15-09-2010, 09:20 AM
#71
PassionFord Post Troll
i was just going by what you said, "most ignition possible without det" but i know what you mean. thinking on from that, during a live map as you cant measure the actual torque figure you would have to map to MBT by just reaching the point of det, retard till you get no det and then retard some more based on whether or not the car feels less torquey and if you retard too much then advance it a little again.would i be right in saying this?
hell, i'll come work for you (after my knee op) and learn all i can 8)
15-09-2010, 09:32 AM
#72
So for my cossie engine, I want as much ignition as possible when on full boost as its knock that limits the power, so every extra degree you put in increases torque, so the minimum amount of best torque, is the most ignition without det.
On my clio, if I put more ignition in at MBT then it will plateu and then start to fall.
thinking on from that, during a live map as you cant measure the actual torque figure you would have to map to MBT by just reaching the point of det, retard till you get no det and then retard some more based on whether or not the car feels less torquey and if you retard too much then advance it a little again.
Please note, although im talking about N/A and turbo here, its not quite that clear cut, thats only a 99% fit, some very high comp N/A engines are knock limited at points in the rev range and a low boost low comp turbo car wont be knock limited, im just generalising as its not possible to talk about every single possiblity all in one go, so people need to be aware there are exceptions to what I am saying.
would i be right in saying this?
hell, i'll come work for you (after my knee op) and learn all i can 8)
hell, i'll come work for you (after my knee op) and learn all i can 8)
Last edited by Chip; 15-09-2010 at 09:33 AM.
15-09-2010, 11:13 AM
#74
Advanced PassionFord User
right the aerospace industry is up in arms, as they have found out that turbine engines give people AIDS. so they have had to revert back to the good old piston engine, now do you think these engineers will be sat round saying "i think that ignition should be backed off a bit more" and "its not at 11.6:1 yet"? lol
Of course people don't aim for a specific AFR, they either base it on what there seeing off the EGT guage(s) or on previous experience. This is the 50% opinion that Mark is on about.
15-09-2010, 02:36 PM
#75
Professional Waffler
Do you think the map on your mini, for example, couldn't be improved (with no other changes to the engine and without increasing boost pressure)?
Of course people don't aim for a specific AFR, they either base it on what there seeing off the EGT guage(s) or on previous experience. This is the 50% opinion that Mark is on about.
Of course people don't aim for a specific AFR, they either base it on what there seeing off the EGT guage(s) or on previous experience. This is the 50% opinion that Mark is on about.
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