MBT and rbt for me!!!




cheers danny

 

that sentence should of ended it after that naughty sixth word again LOL LOL


and the answer to your question is the one which suits what the customer asked for!!!

right another situation here, im the long lost bastard son of bill gates, now bill gates has popped it, and ive ended up with all his money and im a bit doolayey-tip, i got 100 engines here, they are all exactly the same, even down to a atomic level. and a tanker of the same fuel.
now i give 33 engines to you danny, 33 to mark, 33 to mclaren F1 (the last one is just for me as i like to lick it in my spare time)
now my briefing to you all is "i want you to get as much power from these bitches as possible, but you aint allowed to touch the engine in any way"
now you all got unlimited cash (curtsey of my long gone daddy) you can hire whoever you like, have the best dynos in the world (with 100% repeatability)

now you come back to me in years to come, will the maps look the same,, and if not why not?

 

dont tempt me mate its in my mind to get her on your rollers and see what gains would be made by leaning her out abit and chucking more boost in ! but its been faultless and taken all the abuse ive chucked at it and not bated an eyelid and im worried that could change lol

 

please,,, im not even going to answer that, when words are used like "back off a bit" and "probably" you know your clutching at straws. ive read lots of technical briefings in my time, on lots of different subjects and never seen these words used.

 

I get you mate i really do but if your engine ever went bang becuase of our map we would stand by it as we are confident you wont leave us with unsafe map...
And as iv said if we cant get any more power safely for you you dont pay!!!


cheers danny

 

Imo they will all probably differ a bit from the begining as all 3 will do a slightly different job so need to leave it years as you will see the difference in opinion the day you get the engines back!!!and thats the point but i understand what your saying fully as they should in theory all be the same...


cheers danny

 

I find it a bit scarey seeing people quote AFRs to map to which they think apply to ALL engines.
IME different engines work better at different AFR's, and if im in any doubt i'd sooner be the rich side of just right than the lean side.

My first pass through on mapping a car will always be a footballer map.

 

right the aerospace industry is up in arms, as they have found out that turbine engines give people AIDS. so they have had to revert back to the good old piston engine, now do you think these engineers will be sat round saying "i think that ignition should be backed off a bit more" and "its not at 11.6:1 yet"? lol

 

I fully agree hence why any afrs iv quoted have followed by for example...

And yes right up in the rev range and on full boost i will always leave a little extra fuel in there and as youve said some engines do prefer to run richer than others and vice versa..


cheers danny

 

No they would just probably do what all big car manufacturers do and get a good map on one engine,make it safe and give all the other engines that same map!!!meaning none of them will be optimum but will work well enough...


cheers danny

 

so after all this is any body going to help the topic starter lol

 

No, he's a cunt, thats why I made up some bullshit excuses not to map his car

 

rofl.....

 

personally i would rather wait a few weeks for someone i knew had a decent back ground than rush to somebody that is free now....... after my experiences with jdm, its worth waiting

 

Yes hopefully we will be...

And lol at chip!!


cheers danny

 

Doh, my typo got quoted twice before I edited it

 

i think we both gathered what you ment though fella

 

Loving this thread, keep it coming just one quick question.

i'm sure i've come across these before but cant remember them, whats MBT and RBT??

 

Minimum advance best torque
Rich best torque


You start with a footballer map normally then move towards those two.

 

yep definately came across that at uni, thank you for switching the light on in my brain

 

Thats what i like about the dd rr as it has tractive effort witch i prefer to use when mapping as you can see when the car is at these points very quickly and easy...


cheers danny

 

I like the tractive effort screen too but its easy to get too much heat into the engine if you spend long on a held rpm value at full throttle so you need to use it sparingly.

Awesome for part throttle stuff though where you have all the time in the world

 

I know mate i scream at luke sometimes(especially when its my car)because it seems like ages hes there reving it hard...but yeah we prefer it mainly with the low down stuff especially big turbo cars when your getting the best out of the off boost stuff etc..


cheers danny

 

so how do you map to these points when live mapping??

or do you map to these points on rolling road and then tweek the map on a live map session going on how the car feels and mapping to a pre-determined afr and alter the ignition timing listening out for det preferably using det cans??

 

Live mapping on the road you will never find these points realistically unless its on a knock limited engine (like most YBs) as then MBT is just the point with most ignition possible without det.

I like live mapping for turbos where im rarely chasing every last bhp and just care how it drives and that its safe, for N/A though, rollers are king

 

wouldnt that be classed as MAXIMUM advance best torque??

i can see that being the realisticly acheivable one though aswell as tweeking the afr to alter the way the car drives unless realistically thats not going to make much difference when playing it safe.

 

so was i right? LOL

 

Right while we're all arguing the right way to do the same end idea, can anyone help me! I want to know can I run my Zetec turbo on a Zetec ecu and obviously remap it or do I have to change to rs turbo ecu ofab,etc?! Iv seen st fez's running off remapped standard ecu's, I know they are slightly different but the principle of using the standard ecu is the same. Cheers guys

 

Dans prob is he is running 680 cc injectors on a map designed for stock zetec ones.

I should imagine some fairly drastic re scalling of his fuel map would get him running better.

Dan, just as a trial knock a third off all the fuelling figures (not sure what DTA use) before 3k rpm and see if it runs better.

 

LOL!

But just to avoid confusion from your joke, no, the term means that you want the MINIMUM amount of advance that still gives best torque, so if 11/12/13 degrees all give the same torque, you go for 11.

 

i was just going by what you said, "most ignition possible without det" but i know what you mean. thinking on from that, during a live map as you cant measure the actual torque figure you would have to map to MBT by just reaching the point of det, retard till you get no det and then retard some more based on whether or not the car feels less torquey and if you retard too much then advance it a little again.

would i be right in saying this?

hell, i'll come work for you (after my knee op) and learn all i can 8)

 

ON A KNOCK LIMITED ENGINE ONLY
So for my cossie engine, I want as much ignition as possible when on full boost as its knock that limits the power, so every extra degree you put in increases torque, so the minimum amount of best torque, is the most ignition without det.
On my clio, if I put more ignition in at MBT then it will plateu and then start to fall.


Total guesswork IMHO, you can feel 5lbft difference when you are mapping a car on the road, thats why for an N/A car (ie one that isnt knock limited) you need rollers


Please note, although im talking about N/A and turbo here, its not quite that clear cut, thats only a 99% fit, some very high comp N/A engines are knock limited at points in the rev range and a low boost low comp turbo car wont be knock limited, im just generalising as its not possible to talk about every single possiblity all in one go, so people need to be aware there are exceptions to what I am saying.


If you come and work for me, you can have the ENTIRE mapping fee that I charge on any engine me and you map together, sound fair?

 

If you come and work for me, you can have the ENTIRE mapping fee that I charge on any engine me and you map together, sound fair?[/QUOTE]
lol

 

Do you think the map on your mini, for example, couldn't be improved (with no other changes to the engine and without increasing boost pressure)?

Of course people don't aim for a specific AFR, they either base it on what there seeing off the EGT guage(s) or on previous experience. This is the 50% opinion that Mark is on about.

 

cause it could,,, but i never said it couldnt!!

 

yes, its booked in at enhanced performance on the 9th of october lol

total cunt