i was just going by what you said, "most ignition possible without det" but i know what you mean. thinking on from that, during a live map as you cant measure the actual torque figure you would have to map to MBT by just reaching the point of det, retard till you get no det and then retard some more based on whether or not the car feels less torquey and if you retard too much then advance it a little again.

would i be right in saying this?

hell, i'll come work for you (after my knee op) and learn all i can 8)