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R&B Motorsport Adjustable Top Mounts

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Old 25-02-2008, 09:49 PM
  #201  
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Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
so by them calculations markk what sort of breaking strain do you think 8 M10 bolts that are 20mm deep into the top mounts and also if they was helicoiled

only in your opinion or corse
Well if they are all equally loaded, you would be looking at a set of bolts capable of taking 40 tonnes of pressure, 20 per corner.

Which probably is as much as a hard suspension car is capable of exerting on them in the right (or wrong depending on how you look at it!) circumstances, but the threads they are going into when you buy this product are not that strong, you would pull the thread before you stretch the bolt IME with ally.

Helicoiling them would put you in a better position of course.

I personally feel if you are going to keep them on the car, that is part of what you should do, along with welding a solid ring into the shell to add extra support as the metal you cut away was shaped by ford for strength and you have reduced it.
Old 25-02-2008, 09:49 PM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Just when I think ive got somewhere with you mate, I end up having to go back to talking to you like a mongaloid again

No they are NOT just the same as everything else in this marketplace, a correctly designed strut top SHOULD be idiot proof, as invariabley thats where its going to end up at some point, these are NOT.

If someone buys a set of the ones I posted a few pages back then no matter how poorly they are maintained, how badly they are overtightened or the threads are stripped, or how much bolt loosening vibration they are subjected to on a competion car with solid mounts etc they will STILL not ever allow the shock to move upwards and smash the wheel into the bodywork locking it solid in the process, sure they might end up with some strange handling as they go out of adjustment etc, but that is NOT the same as what these ones will do.
I disagree.

They are not idiot proof, like 99% of car parts.


if your threads strip, ok the shock wont go thro the turret, but movement at the strut top can be deadly due to the geometry movement issues
Old 25-02-2008, 09:51 PM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by Flux Capacitor
Does anyone know how you go about setting something like this up ??

I presume you need to take it to a wheel alignment centre to set up all the adjustments
but how do you know what figures to tell them ?? (brief explanation will be ok if you like)

(I am totally dumb when to comes to topics on suspension )
It depends, doug stirling for example (as Mike will im sure testify) has some excellent tools he has made himself to allow him to align cars suspension and check various aspects of its geometry, in some cases MORE accurately than a lot of commerical firms can do with their fancy laser guided equipment.

Its a shame he is no longer on here to post about it!
Old 25-02-2008, 09:52 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by Fiecos Dan

But also, same as everything else, only as good/safe as who fit's and maintains them.
you can lead a horse to water.....
Old 25-02-2008, 09:53 PM
  #205  
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Originally Posted by Fiecos Dan
I disagree.

They are not idiot proof, like 99% of car parts.


if your threads strip, ok the shock wont go thro the turret, but movement at the strut top can be deadly due to the geometry movement issues
Dan, given the choice, would you prefer to be in a car who camber changes slightly when you are going down the motorway, or whose shock absorber is not attached any longer and hence the wheels comes up through the bodywork?

Personally I would fin the first one scarey but probably correctable by a reasonably driver, the second scenario I believe you would have NO chance with.

The people who make cars ALL agree with me on this as far as im aware, certainly every car Ive ever been personally involved in testing commerically, and every car ive ever owned, and every car ive ever worked on.
Old 25-02-2008, 09:54 PM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
you can lead a horse to water.....
Indeed mate, and there is a LOT of water for you (and other potential buyers or retailers of this product) in this thread if you choose to drink it
Old 25-02-2008, 09:54 PM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
It depends, doug stirling for example (as Mike will im sure testify) has some excellent tools he has made himself to allow him to align cars suspension and check various aspects of its geometry, in some cases MORE accurately than a lot of commerical firms can do with their fancy laser guided equipment.

Its a shame he is no longer on here to post about it!
Probably a subject for another thread when things have cooled down !

As for Doug, agree 100%
Old 25-02-2008, 09:59 PM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by Flux Capacitor
Does anyone know how you go about setting something like this up ??

I presume you need to take it to a wheel alignment centre to set up all the adjustments
but how do you know what figures to tell them ?? (brief explanation will be ok if you like)

(I am totally dumb when to comes to topics on suspension )


Yeah it would be best to take to a place with,
corner wieghts, 4 wheel laser setup equipment.


Geometry settings change, compared to car, useage and driver.




i found best roughly for road /track

Front, 1mm toe in, 2' camber, 4-5' castor
Rear, 1-2mm toe in on 4wd, toe out on fwd, 1.5' camber

and for road use, Front, no toe, 1' camber, 3 castor.

and for acceleration grip on a fwd, Front, 1mm toe out, 0.5 camber



I set all my own suspendsion up myself, on my home made equipement, it does take alot longer to do, and isn't as accurate, but good enough to 1/8th of a degree on the camber and castor if done correctly on a true level surface, but is spot on on the 4wd toe allighnment.

and i havent played with corner wieghting before, or bump steer.

Last edited by Fiecos Dan; 25-02-2008 at 10:01 PM.
Old 25-02-2008, 10:05 PM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Dan, given the choice, would you prefer to be in a car who camber changes slightly when you are going down the motorway, or whose shock absorber is not attached any longer and hence the wheels comes up through the bodywork?

.

Thats a trick question, as i would of hope everyone would answer the same. (1st answer)
Old 25-02-2008, 10:14 PM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Indeed mate, and there is a LOT of water for you (and other potential buyers or retailers of this product) in this thread if you choose to drink it
other than you pointing out there are 8 bolts and not 12 holding the car up from the very first post i said me and dan would be lock tighting and heli coiling these using a round washer type flange

my coment about the horse was me agreeing with what dan said about other parts being dangerous...

Back on topic

After speaking to Mike today and booking the car in at Autotest to have it all setup i will be putting my original TCA's on and taking of the Adjustabe ones in the hoping that these top mounts will give enough adjustment for what i want retaining the Standard items
Old 25-02-2008, 10:17 PM
  #211  
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Arnt Cossie adjustable TCAs notoriously weak and bend/snap, and many consider to be weak/dangerous, or am I thinking of another car?
Old 25-02-2008, 10:19 PM
  #212  
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Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
other than you pointing out there are 8 bolts and not 12 holding the car up from the very first post i said me and dan would be lock tighting and heli coiling these using a round washer type flange

my coment about the horse was me agreeing with what dan said about other parts being dangerous...

Back on topic

After speaking to Mike today and booking the car in at Autotest to have it all setup i will be putting my original TCA's on and taking of the Adjustabe ones in the hoping that these top mounts will give enough adjustment for what i want retaining the Standard items

Thats what i was talking about on Sunday, as it gives you, Mike a idea of the adjustment allowed on a std car with these top mounts, (ie castor and camber)

but with the std TCA's and top mount set up, you no longer need the extended drive shafts or rod end extensions (which could cause issues when trying to set the Toe back up on std TCA's, as they will be too long, but if removed, will be too short.

Last edited by Fiecos Dan; 25-02-2008 at 10:22 PM.
Old 25-02-2008, 10:20 PM
  #213  
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Dan, given the choice, would you prefer to be in a car who camber changes slightly when you are going down the motorway, or whose shock absorber is not attached any longer and hence the wheels comes up through the bodywork?
Chip i know its not directed at me but FFS give it a fucking rest!! mike has said he is speaking to the company that has made these and im sure once he heres back he will have somthing to say and i have also said this in my earlyer post too!!!!!!!!!!!! Now why not give them a chance to reply and give and explanation because even if you are wrong no one is ever goig to want a set of these wether they are ok to use or not and none of us NONE of us have any Facts at all

If nothing is said about this subject then you have every right to ake people aware but i think for today you have got your point across to everyone that you want an answer if they are safe or not!!!!!
Old 25-02-2008, 10:20 PM
  #214  
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Originally Posted by Stavros
Arnt Cossie adjustable TCAs notoriously weak and bend/snap, and many consider to be weak/dangerous, or am I thinking of another car?


the only issue i know about Adj TCA's on a cossie, are the ball joints are of a smaller size than OE item, and fail more often
Old 25-02-2008, 10:27 PM
  #215  
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Originally Posted by Fiecos Dan
Thats what i was talking about on Sunday, as it gives you, Mike a idea of the adjustment allowed on a std car with these top mounts, (ie castor and camber)

but with the std TCA's and top mount set up, you no longer need the extended drive shafts or rod end extensions (which could cause issues when trying to set the Toe back up on std TCA's, as they will be too long, but if removed, will be too short.
you know what dan im not to sure as the longer drive shafts are only 10mm longer and i think even with standard TCA's you may need them due to them spitting the shafts out when running 3 Degrees Negative Camber and cornering hard
Old 25-02-2008, 10:27 PM
  #216  
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Originally Posted by Fiecos Dan
the only issue i know about Adj TCA's on a cossie, are the ball joints are of a smaller size than OE item, and fail more often
Correct thats why i want to know if the standard ones can be used
Old 25-02-2008, 10:29 PM
  #217  
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Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
you know what dan im not to sure as the longer drive shafts are only 10mm longer and i think even with standard TCA's you may need them due to them spitting the shafts out when running 3 Degrees Negative Camber and cornering hard

Theres a difference of running 3' camber on adj TCA's, and 3' camber on top mounts.


As on the TCA's, the hub is moved away for the front diff, where as on top mounts the hub moves closer to the Diff.
Old 25-02-2008, 10:34 PM
  #218  
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Remember it is possible to convert your O/E ones if your at all worried Ben. We generally find that you cant get enough adjustment by using top mounts alone.
Old 25-02-2008, 10:35 PM
  #219  
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looks like i will be keeping the Adjus Tca's for the mo then as the shafts are staying speshly as we took one apart the other day
Old 25-02-2008, 10:36 PM
  #220  
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i'll be very surprised if you can get 3° on them strut tops in neggy camber
Old 25-02-2008, 10:37 PM
  #221  
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Originally Posted by NUTS RuS
Remember it is possible to convert your O/E ones if your at all worried Ben. We generally find that you cant get enough adjustment by using top mounts alone.
nice one RuS wil keep that in mind, do you do the conversion?
Old 25-02-2008, 10:41 PM
  #222  
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Originally Posted by markk
i'll be very surprised if you can get 3° on them strut tops in neggy camber
well this was what we was going to find out as i was going to be the ginny pig but looks like we need someone with a more standard setup I.E. standard shafts and tca's
Old 25-02-2008, 11:04 PM
  #223  
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Ben what shafts are you running ? Im going to be fitting compression stuts soon along with my adjustable tca's so will be needing to get my front end set up.
On the top mounts i think the design is good but just a few simple mods could make it a bit more reliable, simple through bolting into a heavyer load bearing ring under the strut top.
Old 25-02-2008, 11:05 PM
  #224  
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Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
well this was what we was going to find out as i was going to be the ginny pig but looks like we need someone with a more standard setup I.E. standard shafts and tca's
No, you just need to get someone to measure a set of standard ones and set yours the same (although "standard" caries a lot anyway)
Old 25-02-2008, 11:08 PM
  #225  
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Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
Chip i know its not directed at me but FFS give it a fucking rest!! mike has said he is speaking to the company that has made these and im sure once he heres back he will have somthing to say and i have also said this in my earlyer post too!!!!!!!!!!!! Now why not give them a chance to reply and give and explanation because even if you are wrong no one is ever goig to want a set of these wether they are ok to use or not and none of us NONE of us have any Facts at all

If nothing is said about this subject then you have every right to ake people aware but i think for today you have got your point across to everyone that you want an answer if they are safe or not!!!!!
I dont want the company to tell me if they are safe enough, as I wouldnt trust their word on that anyway, all I wanted from them is the details of how they work so I can make my mind up myself.
Im afraid Im absolutely TERRIBLE at taking people's word for things, I absolutely ALWAYS have to work it out for myself, and question what people say, its the only way I ever believe anything.
I have a friend who knows a LOT more about engines than I do, im well aware of this and he has literally never been wrong on anything he has ever told me, I still dont ever take his word for it when he tells me things though, I always question him on it, and work it out for myself, its just the way I am, I have a very scientific mindset, im just not good at upsetting WHAT something does, I have to know WHY and HOW
If that makes it seem like im arguing just for the sake of it, then Im afraid thats simply you misinterpreting my motives.
Old 25-02-2008, 11:10 PM
  #226  
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Originally Posted by NEIL A
Ben what shafts are you running ? Im going to be fitting compression stuts soon along with my adjustable tca's so will be needing to get my front end set up.
On the top mounts i think the design is good but just a few simple mods could make it a bit more reliable, simple through bolting into a heavyer load bearing ring under the strut top.
You CANT "simple through bolt" though mate, as the bit you have to bolt through in order to make this transfer the load to the right place really is too bolt right from the top down, Ie onto the camber adjuster down to the shell, and if you do that, then its not adjustable anymore, you would be better off just getting a standard setup and drilling new holes for it to fit where you want!

People keep trying to come up with a quick fix to change the fundamental flaws involved in bolting this on the top, you CANT ever do that and still keep the way in which these are adjusted, you would have changed them so much that there wouldnt be any components of the original design left. What you need to do, is simply use some that bolt up properly underneath in the first place.

Last edited by Chip; 25-02-2008 at 11:12 PM.
Old 25-02-2008, 11:17 PM
  #227  
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Chip looking at the pics the 4 bolts you were going on about get slackened for adjustment, so if these were bolted right through into a heavyer plate under the turret there function/operation would stay the same. Its just the load path would then be from a heavy plate under the strut through 4 high tensile steel bolts, rather than through 4 bolts into alloy. Or am i missing an adjustment somewhere ?
Old 25-02-2008, 11:20 PM
  #228  
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Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
well this was what we was going to find out as i was going to be the ginny pig but looks like we need someone with a more standard setup I.E. standard shafts and tca's


as i've made Adj TCA's for cossie before, i have the std length, and can set you TCA's to std length, for Mikes Suspension place to test the adjustability of the top mounts.
Old 25-02-2008, 11:22 PM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by NEIL A
Chip looking at the pics the 4 bolts you were going on about get slackened for adjustment, so if these were bolted right through into a heavyer plate under the turret there function/operation would stay the same. Its just the load path would then be from a heavy plate under the strut through 4 high tensile steel bolts, rather than through 4 bolts into alloy. Or am i missing an adjustment somewhere ?
You are missing the fact that those bolts have to pass through the bottom section of the mount and through the chassis, so if you drill holes through those for the bolts to pass through, you then wouldnt be able to bolt it up anymore, unless the those holes were MASSIVELY over sized, which has its own issues of course!
Old 25-02-2008, 11:24 PM
  #230  
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Originally Posted by Fiecos Dan
as i've made Adj TCA's for cossie before, i have the std length, and can set you TCA's to std length, for Mikes Suspension place to test the adjustability of the top mounts.
you could also just measure with a ruler how far they move the strut in each direction, and do some very simple pythagorus anyway to work it out of course without even needing to measure it, as a ballpark figure is all you are aiming for as every standard car varies a bit anyway, so you wont EVER get a "one size fits all" figure anyway.
Old 25-02-2008, 11:26 PM
  #231  
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
If that makes it seem like im arguing just for the sake of it, then Im afraid thats simply you misinterpreting my motives.
no im not misinterpreting your motives and i know where your comming form but you wont shut the fuck up!! jesus your worse than me with 4 bottle of red wine in me

your even answering every question on the post about things you have no first hand expiriance with, like telling me to measure someones TCA's when i said i have my own Standard set and set them the same and what cut a bit off the shafts and weld them up the same too

think i must be all chipped out

NEIL A my shafts are the 10mm longer ones that ggr sell, thanks for the comment on the top mounts but better do as chip says

im off to bed
Old 25-02-2008, 11:28 PM
  #232  
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
You are missing the fact that those bolts have to pass through the bottom section of the mount and through the chassis, so if you drill holes through those for the bolts to pass through, you then wouldnt be able to bolt it up anymore, unless the those holes were MASSIVELY over sized, which has its own issues of course!

Why's that??????


There is no reason for it not to improve it shed loads.
Old 25-02-2008, 11:31 PM
  #233  
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Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
no im not misinterpreting your motives and i know where your comming form but you wont shut the fuck up!! jesus your worse than me with 4 bottle of red wine in me

your even answering every question on the post about things you have no first hand expiriance with, like telling me to measure someones TCA's when i said i have my own Standard set and set them the same and what cut a bit off the shafts and weld them up the same too

think i must be all chipped out

NEIL A my shafts are the 10mm longer ones that ggr sell, thanks for the comment on the top mounts but better do as chip says

im off to bed

Ben, TBH as most of your posts seem to be spending so much time commenting on me, rather than the mounts, and im not actually interested in me the way I am in the mounts, I have been guilty of scan reading your posts rather than reading them properly like I have been with the grown up posts from people like Dan, so I did indeed miss you saying you had set them to the length of yours, but I dont really see why you feel the need to comment on the fact I hadnt read that, my comment about setting them to the same length was perfectly valid anyway and needed no correcting, wether you had said it elsewhere or not, unless you are trying to score points in some weird net warrior game or something, as thats not my thing (despite how people may misinterpret some of my posts) I wouldnt know?
Old 25-02-2008, 11:31 PM
  #234  
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No i am getting that Chip but dont see how they would have to be massivley over sized as these are only to compress and hold in position the left to right adjustment, you could even have a thread running from the top right through to the underside plate. All im getting it as then you have a solid load path going from under the turret to the top in effect sandwitching the plate,turret and the two parts of the mount together. rather than turret to base of mount then top of mount to base section.
Old 25-02-2008, 11:34 PM
  #235  
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Originally Posted by Fiecos Dan
Why's that??????


There is no reason for it not to improve it shed loads.

Dan, how would you still adjust the mount if the bolts went right through it?
You would have to have holes in the (already tiny) remaining area of shell that were the diameter of the bolt PLUS double the full possible camber deflection of the adjuster, otherwise those bolts would interfere with its movement, and like I said, if you are going to make massive vague mounting holes like that, you may as well just mount the standard ones on enlarged holes and you can do with them everything you can with this, but with the added bonus of not having to reply on the threads to support the weight, as they fit from underneath (well when I say standard, I mean standard style as obviously you may need slightly smaller diameter ones in order to facilitate enough movement)
Old 25-02-2008, 11:35 PM
  #236  
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Originally Posted by NEIL A
No i am getting that Chip but dont see how they would have to be massivley over sized as these are only to compress and hold in position the left to right adjustment, you could even have a thread running from the top right through to the underside plate. All im getting it as then you have a solid load path going from under the turret to the top in effect sandwitching the plate,turret and the two parts of the mount together. rather than turret to base of mount then top of mount to base section.
If you had a thread running all the way through the bottom section of the mounts, then how would you move the top camber adjustment plate at all?
Old 25-02-2008, 11:37 PM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Dan, how would you still adjust the mount if the bolts went right through it?
You would have to have holes in the (already tiny) remaining area of shell that were the diameter of the bolt PLUS double the full possible camber deflection of the adjuster, otherwise those bolts would interfere with its movement, and like I said, if you are going to make massive vague mounting holes like that, you may as well just mount the standard ones on enlarged holes and you can do with them everything you can with this, but with the added bonus of not having to reply on the threads to support the weight, as they fit from underneath (well when I say standard, I mean standard style as obviously you may need slightly smaller diameter ones in order to facilitate enough movement)

The adjuster slot's will still be able to move as they were designed too,
putting longer bolts in and bolting them thro the turret, will not change the way it adjusts in anyway.
Old 25-02-2008, 11:38 PM
  #238  
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Exactly the same as you will have to just now slacken it, you will still have the original bolts holding the mount to the turret
Old 25-02-2008, 11:41 PM
  #239  
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Dan, got you now, yes, thats correct, apologies to you and Neil, I misunderstood what you were describing, Yes going right down through with those bolts and putting a nut underneath would indeed make it a lot stronger, but would then make the mount TOTALLY pointless as you wouldnt be able to adjust it with the strut in, going down and into a large ring with captive nuts or thread sections though WOULD allow the adjustment still.

Thats acutally FAR better than just helicoiling the ally in fact, so a really good suggestion that ben can implement if he keeps these mounts
Old 25-02-2008, 11:43 PM
  #240  
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chip dont start that net warrior bullsit with me mate as it dont wash! im no diffrent on here as i am in real life am i?

Do not post on any of my topics and i will not on yours! i will not be replying even on this topic which i started and you took over as i have nothing else to say!

Do me a favor and put me on block as im sick to fucking death of this me me me atitude from you i truly wish you would just fuck off

Do not try to speak to me again as you will be talking to your self!!


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