dojj

iTrader: (3)

in post 111 chip, that shows that, as far as i'm concered, the bolts coming through the suspension turret and having the threaded bit pointing down

so on that assumption yes, if you undone them the car would drop

if they were the other way around and they were being bolted into the adjustable bit then you would need to undo them from underneath, a bit tricky yes but it would still be the same problem

there needs to be a way to secure the nuts to the bolts to stop them from coming undone and going from underneath, even if it's to sandwich the different tops and bottoms inbetween the strut turret, would be a better sollution than to have them at the top

the picture in post 111 is the only one i can see at work so there may be otheres that show diferent things

RST-AndyP

Jesus Christ now i can see the major flaw,looks good though so aslong as the car dont move 100% safe!

ian sibbert

Not wanting to put down the concept of these top mounts, but what are people trying to acheive?

If you have compression struts and in-situ TCA'a why do you need adjustable top mounts?

Surely you are just compounding an already multi adjustable assembley, because if you make adjustments to the top mounts, you may have to compensate these adjustments on your lower suspension components.

As I see it, and as is the case on a grp'a' or WRC car, the centres between the stut tops is increased to allow the overall assembley be positioned at a more enhanced angle, surely it would be better to have a fixed wide point at the stut top (to act as a datum) then acheive your desired geometry settings on you compression struts/tca's.

They look very nice and i'm sure they are very well made, but I suspect they have more of a bling factor than a practical use....

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Dojj, the ONLY way to be NOT reliant on the bolts IMHO, is to mount the strut top underneath, so that the suspension loading (and hence weight of the car) pushes it INTO the solid metal, not away from.

This is how EVERY car I know of works, I believe it would be a type approval failure for it not to do so, and I believe it would mean you couldnt get TUV approval for it not to do so too (ive only a basic understanding of the TUV process so someone who knows better PLEASE correct me if Im wrong here)

Here is how it should be done for example:


That gues UNDERNEATH, even if you remove the bolts, the strut STILL cant make its way up and out, just like essentially every production car always has, for reasons that SHOULD be obvious to all!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The concept is a good one, a quick and easy way to add a limited amount of adjustment to an otherwise standard car.

Fair enough if you have adjustable everything else they arent needed, but as a quick fix to allow you to adjust your road or basic trackday car, the concept is a great one, its just a shame that in this instance it seems to have been implemented in a potentially lethal way!

dojj

iTrader: (3)

one question then

has anyone actually loaded up a car with this et up on to see how it will handle the bumps?

even with the tops cut off for the normal adjustable top set ups there must be a resonable amount of stregth removed from the turret, not enough to compromise it's safety but i'm ust wondering if this has been tested or not?

how much SHOULD the strut take as a shock load?

i know a 110mph impact into the armco will pull the wheel off the front and will rip the arb out of the tca, but even then, the hub was wrenched from the tca when the ball joint came out, the steering arm was detached at the end of the ball and the strut stripped the threads from the top as the cup was pulled through, ut the strut top was left virtually unscathed with only some damage where the upper cup had bounced out, so in mounting it this way how much to you compreomise the strength the other way?

loads it would seem

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Dojj, im sure when installed correctly, and when the threads are in good order, it will take the corner weight of the car and a lot more besides.

My concern with these mounts, is that as the thread get tired on ally for those 4 bolts (bear in mind that if you are swapping to and from a trackday / road / dragstrip set thats going to see them used very often) potentially you get to the stage where you are trusting 4 small ally thread which are on the brink of pulling, to hold the entire corner weight of the car.
I genuinely can see someone getting significantly more dead than they intended as a result of a set of these at some point.

fraser9764

iTrader: (3)

i cant be bothered reading every post in detail but i do see the argument, however, on a track car it shouldnt be a problem really as there isn't a shock as such, just stress.
i think if they were mine i would be helicoiling them though, ally threads aren't exactly the strongest.

Phil

iTrader: (1)

I would argue that a track car would have as much shock loaded on to the bolts as any other car. For a start you have very stuff suspension and stiffer bushes to take away less of the bumps, then if you ride the kirb at speed to cut a chicane etc this gives a huge bang (well it does in my car) and then if you spin off onto the grass at high speed you get thrown absolutely everywhere and the car takes a massive pounding.

RichardPON

Absolutely!

As someone who's had their fair share of "offs", the last thing you want is potential suspension failure if you have a high speed off, resulting in a very uncontrollable and avoidable accident!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

BUMP FOR MIKE RAINBIRD

Stavros

Ive not bothered reading the thread properly for about a day as its gaylord bickering with no testing, but I have a thought about the ally it screws in to.

On all the countless camber adjustable top mounts the bolts that fix the shock in whatever position consist of 4 very thin bolts that screw in to very soft alloy threads.
They obv get one hell of a pounding on cars, and ive never seen them break or pull out the threads, even when the cars had a serious off and bent all the suspension arms etc, so wouldnt this be the same?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Show me a picture of them and I will tell you if its the same or not.

Most of the ones ive seen (like Tein ones on a skyline for example) they sit UNDERNEATH, so instead of the adjust screws taking 100% of the corner weight, they instead take 0% of the corner weight, which is a far nicer figure for them to have to handle!

So the short answer is NO, its nothing at all like all the ones you have seen thats fine, they are done properly, would pass TUV approval no doubt, could be put on a standard car and get type approval etc etc, this couldnt IMHO!


Mike, please will you reply to just give YOUR view on where the load is going to be transmitted based on the pictures, am I right that it ALL goes through those 4 bolts, or have I totally misunderstood how they operate, if I have totally misunderstood then PLEASE correct me!
I can handle the truth

dojj

iTrader: (3)

if they are underslung, and correct me if i'm wrong here again, they take no suspended load, only lateral loads under normal driving yes?

so i think you may need to read the thread again stav

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Stav, when the day comes that Dojj can take a glance at them and understand how they work, and you cant, its time to take a long hard look at yourself

PAUL_SHEP

This topic has proved one thing to me, that chip has a lot of free time!!! but does have a compelling argument.

Stavros

yeah, right-o, nice one. its not me that needs to take a look at theirselves.

i read the bit about the underslung and not bit, hence why i didnt mention it as that bit is beyond doubt, its not ideal.

i just thought id mention the strength thing, as underslung or not, a crash is a crash and ive never seen the skinny ass ally threads getting fucked, and these fuckers are far beefier.

so without tests, who are we to completley slag one of mikes products and fuck his business?

dojj

iTrader: (3)

i think it's a question of how much strength the threads will take in a shock situation rather thanhow much you can tighten them before they strip stav

they aren't the same things

but i can't see how someone else products, without any feedback that mike has posted about because he's asked the questions, can bankrupt him overnight

dojj

iTrader: (3)

one more thing, double skinned strut turrets will take more shock than the threads on the bolts
the only thing that the washers do is spread the load so that the bolt heads won't pull themselves through the metal, but i can't think this would happen before the threads strip

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Stav, it was a joke mate, relax.

With regards to the "underslung or not" though, you seem to genuinely be REALLY missing the point, as its the different between the thread have any load or not.

Of COURSE they wont fail on the underneath ones when they have no load on them, and even if they did fail, all it would only alter the camber, not release the shock to make a break for freedom through the bonnet.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Dunno, he's been online, just not answered this one, I can understand him not getting drawn into if they are safe or strong enough etc without talking to the manufacturer first, but I dont see why he wont just answer the simple question of if the bolts are taking the entire corner weight or not, thats a very simple question after all as he has obivously had the product in his hand, not made do with poor quality picutres of it fully assembled like us!

Gatecrasher

Being a Patronising Cunt and being helpfull or genuinly worried are somthing i really think you stuggle with Chip, i know they say that the internet has no tone but i only have to re-read back the posts from the first page(s) to refresh my feeling towards the way you speak to me

I come on here to talk about my car, read about other peoples, to see what new modifications are on the market or what is comming up or what is in the pipe line not to argue with people

my tone may come across a little abrupt sometimes but i am no diffrent in real life as to what i am on the internet anyone who has met me can tell you that and even you! i dont mind constructive critisism and i know half the time if it isnt that its just banter and calling dick is a name carried over from the last thread where you took the piss out of me

Going back to the top mounts you are 100% correct in saying that the 6 bolts are not taking the weight of the car and that there is 4 "well 8 actualy 4 a side"

I have no problem admiting im worng when i am and if you wasnt in the "i know everything mode" way of hinking and speking i would have probebly see what you was saying earlyer in the post

i await to see what the company who makes them say but im sure they are not made from regular alloy and will have some special tolerances on the bolts ect and i would assume that they have been some pretty good testing on these items before they was sold

Mine will still be Heli coiled with the flange and possibly the 4 bolts updated to M12’s possibly with Heli coils also

One last thing this imaginative image of the shock busting through the bonnet is still a little far fetched, the whole of the suspension geometry is held in place via these 8 bolts so if one was to come loose it would shift the whole cars feel and way it handles

I cant comment on future old sets that people know nothing about that have been abused but then you could say that about a 17 year old getting his hands on a second hand nitrous system and fucking up the installation I dot know how but im sure this could be quiet hazards? You could say this about loads of parts that was juts off the top of my head

Anyway my cars done 85+ miles and no problems and that’s with no flange, Heli coils, or lock tight, bring on snetterton next week

Ben

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ben, there is nothing in my tone other than wanting to get to the truth about it, not so that I can go "told you so" to patronise you like you seem to think I want to, just purely because people come here to learn about things and I want that learning to be accurate (for me as well as others, thats one of my main reasons for coming here, to learn!)

If you cant read something like this:
The way I wrote it, its not really my fault TBH, when I was saying "PLEASE correct me" I meant it, if im wrong about it, I want to know Im wrong about it, I dont want to go around thinking im right when im not, I want to know how things really work cause I find how things work interesting!

Your comment about feeling them come loose is probably a good one, im sure a large % of possible failures could be avoided that way if when it happens you are in a position to do something about it (ie feeling it about to go when you are doing 100mph isnt useful if you cant stop before it goes)

With regards to secondhand nitrous kits, depends on the make, some of the american ones are fucking litter and will grenade your engine quite happily, best avoided IMHO.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

you tit, its not like that at all, you have taken that right out of context, I was actually having a go at myself for giving in and letting ben tell me I was wrong when I wasnt because it meant the thread risked not being accurate.
Im here to learn, I couldnt give a fuck about who is right or wrong, all I give a fuck about is that at the end of the thread, its full of accurate info we can all learn from!

Another what should be interesting technical thread going down the pan with people talking about people, rather than cars, I swear you lot would be better off on an episode of Jeremy Kyle or at a local Women's Institute meeting sometimes.

Ive no intention of staying away from interesting threads like this about how things work just cause of the likes of you and Stavros, I would suggest that you should probably both click this link:
https://passionford.com/forum/profil...ignore&u=26402

glancy2081

hi how thick is the material that is threaded on these

Stavros

have you never ever noticed this happens regularly and pretty much only ever on threads you have been posting a lot on, and not others?

and you have never thought it was due to the way you reply to people?

right or wrong soon becomes besides the point most the time, with this thread a case in point, as you have put up perfectly good and valid points, tainted by talking to people like a patronising cunt.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

you are mistaking me for someone who gives a fuck how YOU choose to read something (despite acutally knowing me well enough in real life to realise you are probably not doing so in a manner representative of the way it was written), if you dont like it, then just add me to your ignore list rather than constantly following me around the forum like a whining easily offended little schoolkid ruining thread after thread just talking about me all the time, you are turning into Phil.


Anyway, simplest thing for you to do stav is just click here: https://passionford.com/forum/profil...ignore&u=26402

As it makes NO difference to me if you read what I write or not, so if it upsets you, you can easily avoid it with that one simple click and it will save you wasting so much time in retarded threads talking about how people word things.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I was speaking VERY bluntly to ben in an attempt to ram the facts through as I think that as its his car and his life depends on these 4 bolts staying in one piece, that he should actually be made AWARE of the fact that these 4 bolts are the only thing stopping his suspension exiting the strut top.

The fact he has had the bloody things in front of him and fitted them and still not noticed this simple concept, led me to believe I needed to pitch my argument pretty fucking low from a technical point of view to not go over his head on this particular subject, so yes I spoke to him like a "mongaloid" if thats how you want to phrase it, and even talking down at that level it still took 4 fucking pages for him to see what I meant, so thank fuck I didnt start it at A level chemistry standard, we'd have been here all year!

RST-AndyP

FFS children grow up,Chip-3door may i suggest you have a wank.

The design is flawed,but you dont have to keep on child like,tell me did you check the under 13 box on registeration to this site?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Mate, if you dont like reading what I write, click the link in my sig, problem solved.

The only box I ticked when joining this forum was the "is more interested in how cars work than how easily offended people with insecurities etc react" one

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Now can we get back to talking about suspension setups, or is there anyone else sad enough to find me FAR more interesting than suspension and would rather talk about me instead?

RST-AndyP

My friend i can see why people are getting irritated by you,too self important,ignore TICKED.

to edit,thanks for telling me that we can ignore idiots.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Matt J, its flattering you still want to carry on chatting about me, but perhaps it would be more in keeping with the layout of the forum if you start a thread in the muppet room titled "my views on chip-3door" then it could be read by people interested in such things, rather than polluting a thread which is about suspension instead?

Gatecrasher

Chip please dont use me as amunition as i totaly agree with what people are saying about the way you patronise people on this site

please dont come with the click the ignor button as when you arnt being a Dick you are quite funny and intresting

not wanting to get into an agument just saying leave me out!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ben, it wasnt me who drug you into it as it happens, it was Matt J, as he referred to me as talking to you like a mongaloid.
I couldnt really pass comment on that statement without it still involving you.

But I do agree with you TOTALLY on the whole "leave me out of it and talk about the cars" thing, if people like Stavros and MattJ want to talk about each other, they can do so on www.Bebo.com

Gatecrasher

is it the bolts you want to know the Thickness of or the actual mounts?

when im next with the car i will get some measuments for you