Gatecrasher

Dick i didnt spit my dummy out i was on my way out the door so had to be quick with my replys but dont worrie im here all night

Also whats all the bullshit about i thought he said 30 caster when i clearly said

If you was to slow down a bit im sure you would see what i was saying intead of asking the same question twice when the aswer was in the original post

Gatecrasher

thanks Martoon i wasnt actualy that botherd and i do like criticism as i was Criticising the top mount by saying what probelms i found with them, it just seem the whirlwind of replys from chip was laughable when he cearly doesnt even bother to read all that is said in the first place

anyway

the picks are on Dans camera and he is on this topic so hopfully he will see this and now he has his PC sorted he will download the picks in to photobucket account and i will post them all up!! with Problem picks intact

Fiecos Dan

i know the shock loads are completely different, but i just wanted to point out a comparision.


They could be re designed to go underneath, but either the turrets will need to be enlargened or wont allow as much adjustment.




Once again, i was just stating a conparision, and then you said
'but it wont make you crash'
But if 2 bolts did fail or fall out from one side of the cross member, then chances are it will cause the other bolts fail, (i know its very unlikely, but i'm just saying), and might full out the bottom of the car, or break a drive shaft ect ect.


Thats why i think they should of been Helicoil'd,

When it comes to sorting Ben's Strut brace out, i'll sort a 3mm steel flange washer for the under side of the turret, and fit Helicoils in all the treads, and lock tight them.




And ps

its 3 degrees and 30 minutes ( = 3.5 degrees)

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ben, that was from the last page, so no need for you latest dull rant whilist calling me names yet again and telling me I didnt read things well enough, you obviously didnt read it very well though as you were too busy ranting at me for not reading things well enough PMSL

If you want to trust some bolts into a bit of ally holding up the weight of your car, its entirely your decision, and I dont especially care either way beyond trying to establish the truth behind how they work as im currently in the middle of changing a couple of my cars around suspension wise so its interesting to see what other people have done, personally I will NOT be trusting ally threads like that, just like it would appear martin, cosworth rallysport, and markk on here all wouldnt, not sure why that offends you so much TBH, anyway have fun on here all night, feel free to rant some more or call me names for no reason again, i'll be online from work tomorrow so will no doubt have time to reply then if you do.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Dan, id trust them better on a helicoil as well, but TBH I still dont like the concept of the front of your car hanging on a few bolts under tension like that, it would fail type approval if it was fitted like that by a manufacter (even in 1983 when the sierra came out and rules were less stringent Im sure it would have) for VERY obvious reasons and IMHO (and the eyes of all the people in the industry who make decisions about such things I would imagine) its potentially quite dangerous, especially if people who own them dont understand the issues with them, so I wouldnt be surprised if some secondhand ones of these with half knackered threads end up killing someone a few years down the line.

I assume that they do NOT have TUV approval for the very same that reasons I dont like them? I dont actually know either way so thats a genuine question, although is aimed more at mike than you or ben.

Stavros

he got abusive for fairly good reason IMO. not because of the critisism, it was the style of your style of what you said, ie talking down to him like he a spaz, hence my earlier post.
but 2mins after i posted you deleted everything from the offending posts that prompted me to post earlier.

markk

iTrader: (2)

Martin they are later versions of yours, they are actually WRC top mounts on extended tops but yes the car is an earlier (late grp a car)

Gatecrasher

I read every post on this topic as i started it, you asked me a question and i Answerd it. may of been late but i have been working on my death trap...

everything that has been said on this topic has been taken into consideration and all usefull coments will be put into affect when my engine comes out in 6 weeks time...

and as far as the name calling it is the only way i know how to bring my self down to your level as i just do not have the wit to talk to someone like they are a cunt without actualy calling them it

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Martin,

I bet you could come up with a far better design .......

Fiecos Dan

Simon, Why post on here with a pointless post? please dont

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

Funny you should say that I do already have something on the go at work that's nearly finshed .... Not interested in selling to Mike's customers though, plenty out there.

Fiecos Dan

When will they be available Martin?

What sort of design are they? and have you got a price on the cards?

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Not pointless, a fair unbiased comment based on all the information on this public forum.




LOL, I dont think Mike would think twice in taking your customers away

Fiecos Dan

Thats the sort of post i mean Simon.

That 1st post might of been constructive, but you seem to be snipping @ Mike and his customers, which i dont know why?

thats why i thought it was poiintless post.

Gatecrasher

funny you should say that simon as mike put me onto Martin

are you intrested in a set of these top mounts for a car of yours then as my post was for people who had them or was thinking about getting a set ect?

was under the car today and after people asking for picks i got these 2





step by steps to follow

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Yes Mike loves me but I am not "snipping", just participating and I dont see
why my comments are less valid than others just because its me who is posting them.


Gatcrasher,
My cosworth needs a bit of TLC yet but yes, possibly in the near future.

Fiecos Dan

Sorry i edited my last post before you posted this, as it didn't read as i meant it.




Your comments are usually very intresting and helpfull, and i dont dislike you in any way, so please dont think i'm haveing a pop at you, as if someone else wrote that post, i would of said the same thing to them. its just how i read your comment as a dig rather than trying to help, if i've read it wrong, sorry.

i didn't know you and Mike didn't get on, as i thought you traded with each other last time i knew, but i must off missed something, as i dont have time to read all posts on here anymore.

RichardPON

I don't understand why you wouldn't, if you wanted to keep this design, have a nice thick metal ring under the metal of the strut top acting as a huge washer with bigger and more heavy duty bolts claping the two halves, rather than relying on bolting through the single skin strut top.

Gatecrasher

Hi Rich,

As mine were the first set to be fitted it was a bit hit and miss and after catting with mike and dan about this, what you have said is what we are going to do, Dan did mention it in an above post

we was going to heli coil and lock tight it but i wasnt sure what we was going to do about a strut brace and didnt know if they was going to need to come off again, it is safe to say i will never be taking them off once they have been helicoiled and lock tighted in place

we even spoke about upping the top bolts to M12 but we will have to wait and see, mike said he is going to contact the company in the Us and show them this thread and see what they think so that should be intresting as they have been using these on cars for quiet some time

Also there is a 5 or 6+ page thread with picks about these top mounts when mike was drumming up intrest showing how they fit and what they are ect, cant understand why it took 6 months odd and for mike to lay the money out getting them for everyone, for people only to start commenting on them now

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

I did see Mike's original thread but didn't pay much attention to how they were going to be fitted or what they would look like in situ, why would I it's his product not mine!

Miller 3

iTrader: (4)

Just looking at this pic ( not read all the posts and i no there has been some debate on these)



But could you not have some 3..4..or 5mm rings made up to go on the inside of the turrets just enough to spread the load off those bolts. Please don't take this as a dig just a thought

Gatecrasher

Matin you have PM

Miller in my last post i was just saying to Pon that Dan posted above that we are going to heli coil and lock tight the bolts, loosing the extra washers we had to use, and in place put a 3mm steel flange washer for the under side of the turret

alistairolsen

fuck that! 6 bolts, with small washers, upwards into an ally tapping?

Ill be interested to see how these fare, but that certainly isnt a design that would even have entered my mind for very obvious reasons.

NUTS RuS

iTrader: (35)

Now seeing the underside pic they are nothing like I thought they would be, or what I was imagining yesterday

Miller 3

iTrader: (4)

Nice one Ben

NUTS RuS

iTrader: (35)

Going back to the Merkur Tech site this is how they do it stateside

http://www.merkurtech.com/merkurtech...arBuild029.jpg

http://www.merkurtech.com/merkurtech...arBuild027.jpg

alistairolsen

that looks like 6 countersunk bolts down thru the plate? id prefer that, but Id stil want a complete ring below the turret to act as a washer tbh

Gatecrasher

Nuts Rus that is just how mine are fitted but with a neater cut hole

JonnyBravo

Looks good Ben, I had a quick look at a set of these at Dannys, they certainly looked BIG !

Gatecrasher

Cheers Jon

Right Dan has Uploaded the picks so anyone intrested here they are

All Coverd up ready for the grinder...



one down one to go



Cleaning up the other side before paint



this is the washer that needed to be opened up a little





and again the finished result



Thats all Folks

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Christ, cant believe there isnt a ring underneath it to spread the load, although even if there was, you are still relying on half a dozen bolts never pulling their ally threads in order to keep your wheels on the car.

That merkurtech instalation looks even worse though, I dont even see any washers.




No doubt they will come on and say its perfectly safe and loads of people use them safely etc, they are hardly going to say otherwise, but even if there are people using them safely, I still wouldnt want to trust that arrangement, and like I said, a few years down the line, once these have been sold a few times and cunted up by various secondhand buyers who've punted them on, the consequences are terrifying.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Shit, ive just noticed something else from looking at that.

All the posts I made about the weight being resting on 4 bolts from what I could see, that I deleted when I was informed it was in fact bolted up from underneath with 6 bolts, I shouldnt have deleted them, cause I was right, that IS placing all the weight on those 4 corner bolts at the top surely?

If those 4 bolts, OR (not and, OR) those 6 bolts underneath have a problem (all of which only go into ally!) it will fail catastrophically.

Look at it, the 6 bolts hold the assembly onto the strut top, but then the strut sits in the bearing which is stopped from moving upwards by pressing into the top adjuster, and what stops that top adjuster moving up? The 4 bolts that I was on about all along and Ben got all arsey and said I didnt know what I was on about, I assumed I had not been able to make things out clearly in the pictures and took his word for it that I was wrong, so deleted my replies, but looking at that much clearer picture from their site, I was in fact right all along it would appear.
Unless someone thinks im missing something and there is anything other than the 6 bolts holding the whole assembly to the car, or thinks there is anymore than the 4 bolts holding the shock into the assembly (and hence both sets of bolts taking the entire corner weight of the car on each set, in the same way that if you have a chain of links and lift a weight, each link sees the whole weight)

I hope im wrong, but I just dont see how I can be from looking at that picture?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

PS

Its dead easy to test, just undo the 4 bolts, and see if the car drops!

These four, the ones ben says are "just adjustment bolts"




Undo them, and take a picture of what happens please!

And then bearing in mind that they are fairly small bolts, go into ally, and potentially are going to be continually loosened and tightened, then if im right about what happens if they undo or pull their threads, people will at least be able to decide from that if they really want these (very sexy looking) things or not.

NEIL A

iTrader: (6)

Im going to have to agree with Chip on this one, would there be any way to through drill those 4 bolt holes then have them going right through into say a 10mm tapped steel or 5 mm with captive lock nuts load bearing ring underneath. Then by uing a decent grade 8 bolt you are atleast transfering the load to under the strut top and into a decent steel fixing.

dojj

iTrader: (3)

i've read this whole thread and here's what my limited technically knowledge has to say about the whle thing

haterz need not apply as i'm not actually trying to slag off or cause ructions with anyone

thecomparisons betwen the engine crable crossmember bolts and the strut tops is fairly difficult to compare as you have 4 really really big bolts bolting through the chassis rails which clamp the whole engine subframe to the car and any shocks are normally softened by the engine mounts which is why they tend to break first

the suspension tops, as far as i am aware, are double skinned and designed with that shape in hind to take the shock of the suspension AND have a rubber thingy in there to absorb any really heavy impact

what the point chip is making seem to argue is that the bolts come up through the turret (which has to be chopped which you could argue may weaken it) and then go into aluminum threads so all this talk about useing another steel ring to spread the load in case the bolts decided to pull themselves through the double skinned turret is a bit silly when it's going to be much more likely that a shock of those proportions will actually pull the threads out of the aluminum

if you can use the bolts with nuts on the other side then the spread the load ring/washer system will work better as you are then virtually adding another layer to the turret and 6 bolts will spread the load much better than 4 the other way

obviuosly if there is a massive flaw in my thinking feel free to correct me but judging by the pictures originally put up (i can't see them now at work so i can't examine them as well) don't seem to allow more than 4 bolts to be used

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

Actually that's miles off, lol. Even though Mike is a raving homo we have an excellent trading relationship... He may be gay but he's not a customer thief.

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Martin,

Fair enough, although my comment was a feeble attempt at banter Lol

Phil

iTrader: (1)

They look well made but I think the design could be improved. I imagine a big pothole even mounting the kirb on track could leave a dent on the underside of the bonnet! Is there no way of putting some longer bolts that go all the way through the unit and some steel nuts on top of the alloy unit to take some of the strain off the alloy threads?

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

I have duly noted the comments made and have forwarded this link to the US supplier who will run it by the manufacturer to see what they have to say to the comments. I'm pretty sure that the alloy used is HE30 (6082), which has a high tensile strength. But I will have to await confirmation before I can comment in any detail (which may take a few days, as they are 8 hours behind).

Chip,
On the Merkur, you can see the washers (albeit not very clearly), they are carbon steel black items. Ben's are more visible, as he has used an additional BZP item.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Mike, VERY simple question here please, as I want a straight answer as to if Ive somehow got the wrong end of the stick or not.

If you undo the 4 bolts at the top, which I have circled, will the car collapse on the suspension? (ie are those 4 bolts taking 100% of the corner weight of the car)
If you are even 1% as clued up as people credit you with being, you should know the answer to this question purely by looking at their construction without needing to talk to the manufacturer about the grades of metal etc, just a straight answer please for "do they take the entire corner weight?"
Im not expecting you to comment on their tensile strength etc, purely on their purpose.

Ben is telling me Ive got it wrong and getting all upset, but I really am very conident on this.

If im wrong, i want to know that Im wrong, as I do a lot of work on my own suspension parts for my car and trust my work with my life, and if Ive got this totally wrong like Ben says I have, then clearly I need to be seeking extra advice with what I do myself.