Live mapping tutorial by Stu.... Discussion Required
25-02-2004, 06:34 PM
#41
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hmmm I can tell from the outset this is going to have to be an interactive lesson here!! lol
a basic introduction would be nice.
I struggle with like time stepping integration type of thing, the concept of taking one point in time with respect to rapidly changing engine parameters confuses me.
at a certain point in time the fuel will need to be xx the advance will need to be yy... but fuel is done at a flowrate so therefore needs a time duration? as in a certain cc/min or what have you.. so thats two time positions and I just cant seem to get that straight.
see if you can start off basic and I may or may not be in a position to ask for more(or less) info.
PS - sorry for jumping in a bit les but I think im on the same lines as stuff you may wanna know aswell
a basic introduction would be nice.
I struggle with like time stepping integration type of thing, the concept of taking one point in time with respect to rapidly changing engine parameters confuses me.
at a certain point in time the fuel will need to be xx the advance will need to be yy... but fuel is done at a flowrate so therefore needs a time duration? as in a certain cc/min or what have you.. so thats two time positions and I just cant seem to get that straight.
see if you can start off basic and I may or may not be in a position to ask for more(or less) info.
PS - sorry for jumping in a bit les but I think im on the same lines as stuff you may wanna know aswell
25-02-2004, 06:36 PM
#43
M Brian,
at a certain point in time the fuel will need to be xx the advance will need to be yy... but fuel is done at a flowrate so therefore needs a time duration? as in a certain cc/min or what have you.. so thats two time positions and I just cant seem to get that straight.
at a certain point in time the fuel will need to be xx the advance will need to be yy... but fuel is done at a flowrate so therefore needs a time duration? as in a certain cc/min or what have you.. so thats two time positions and I just cant seem to get that straight.
Hopefully all will be explained
25-02-2004, 06:38 PM
#45
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Melv don't be daft mate, that's what a BB is for isn't it ? If I didn't want anyone else on my topic I would have PM'd some one.
Now stop appoligising you southern fairy and ask some questions as I can't think of anymore at the moment
Stu you do realise that you have started something here don't you ? You're going to be getting asked alsrots of 'daft' questions by me
for taking the time to reply though mate !!
Now stop appoligising you southern fairy and ask some questions as I can't think of anymore at the moment
Stu you do realise that you have started something here don't you ? You're going to be getting asked alsrots of 'daft' questions by me
for taking the time to reply though mate !!
25-02-2004, 06:43 PM
#47
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southern!! perhaps a bit to you but im not 'southern'!
LOL at philM - yeah source code, thats the bit like I was on about in the matrix.. like people can read binary and stuff. not a hope in hell for me to get near that!
perhaps a bit to you but im not 'southern'!LOL at philM - yeah source code, thats the bit like I was on about in the matrix..
like people can read binary and stuff. not a hope in hell for me to get near that!
25-02-2004, 06:46 PM
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Here is a primer for the discussion. Read it and it should clear *some* things up for you.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-injection.htm
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-injection.htm
25-02-2004, 06:53 PM
#49
chewy,
Stu you do realise that you have started something here don't you ? You're going to be getting asked alsrots of 'daft' questions by me
Stu you do realise that you have started something here don't you ? You're going to be getting asked alsrots of 'daft' questions by me
Do you lot really think i started this forum just to argue with the Phil's and Spadge's of this world?
No.. THIS is why i started the forum, and its about time this kinda discussion got more exposure
25-02-2004, 07:00 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Yes mate, and im pleased.
Do you lot really think i started this forum just to argue with the Phil's and Spadge's of this world?
No.. THIS is why i started the forum, and its about time this kinda discussion got more exposure
Do you lot really think i started this forum just to argue with the Phil's and Spadge's of this world?
No.. THIS is why i started the forum, and its about time this kinda discussion got more exposure
and the whole reason I started using forums a number of years back.
I do wish we would have a few more technical discussions and things as im sure there is a whole new lot of people just joining that are not aware of all the things and details that go into getting the best out of your vehicle.
squabbling and listening to arguements about who has proven what time with what spec list gets monotomosus. I dont give a huge toss if my car is the fastest car in the world or not to be honest, if it provides me with a source of interest and from that offshoots a thirst for more knowledge about it - its all good!!
the bolt on, plug it in or turn it up generation now want more knowledge!!!
(well I do anyway! )bring it on stu!!
25-02-2004, 07:17 PM
#51
**WARNING, THIS PAGE OF TEH TOPIC TAKES AROUND 1MIN TO LOAD EVEN ON BROADBAND, BUT WILL BE WORTH IT AS THE PICTURES HELP TO CLARIFY THE STORY**
This essay is becoming a bit involved.....
I may have to rewind and do this in fookin chapters
I havent even uploaded all the pics ive decided you need to see yet
This essay is becoming a bit involved.....
I may have to rewind and do this in fookin chapters
I havent even uploaded all the pics ive decided you need to see yet
25-02-2004, 07:22 PM
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Ok i got a primer q for ya stu, if mapping on super UL how many degrees would you retard the timing from the point of detonation to allow a saftey margin for crap fuel and/or if people filled up with normal unleaded. do you say advance to the point of det and then retard for example 2/4 degrees or is it something that you play by ear as it were?
25-02-2004, 07:22 PM
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25-02-2004, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by B19-TRB
kept practicing til the cars stopped goin pop!
Lewis says it as it really is with anyone doing mapping !!! - Its all about finding the engines limits and backing off a bit ......
But hey I am learning too !
25-02-2004, 07:56 PM
#56
Ok,
Ive made a bit of a start with the pictures, but i need to go and eat, so il make a start:
This is the Very starting point and is frequently asked:
CHAPTER 1: "What happens on live map day?"
ok, basically what will happen is as follows:
1)we will both sit down with a brew and
discuss your personal requirements.
2)we will go over your mechanical engine specification on paper so i have ALL the facts.
3)I will sit down and devise a base map according to the details YOU have given to me.
4) I will check the car for basic safety and fluids. (you would be AMAZED how many cars i turn away because they have no brakes, or no TAX!!)
5) I will take the car for a drive to asses its performance / flexibility in its current state.
6) I will return and check the fuel pumps flow performance and the fuel lines for any kinks etc and flow check the injectors in the flow bench whether they are new or old. The whole engine intake system will be pressure tested at 2.5bar for leaks and any rectified. Then a full setup will be performed on the engine in its current state. And the car test driven again.
7) I will then return and if everything was fine on the test drive i will fit the following components into your car:
Lambda sensor boss welded into your downpipe.
Boost gauge.
Detonation sensing equiptment.
Air charge temp monitoring equiptment.
Air/fuel ratio monitoring equiptment.
Injector duty cycle monitoring equiptment.
A live fault code reader for the management system.
A hardware emulator.
A DC / AC Convertor.
A laptop.
8) I will then drive away in your pride and joy and two of us will start mapping it, which basically entails adjust the fuel to the correct level for the boost we are running and then taking the spark advance to its limits and then back down again to our chosen level.
9) you will look really worried as we come back, poke around in your car and go out again.
10) We will probably come back again and poke around some more and you will say "hows it going?" "problems??" with a really worried look on your face.
11) We will say "its going fine" and go out again
12) We will finally return and say, "all done for you sir!" And you will collapse with relief!
13) You will pay us lots of your hard earned money in exchange for your old chip and your car keys and wheelspin away like a lunatic leaving us with unhappy neighbours!!
Thats the usual scenario, does that answer your questions or have i missed something?
Copied and modified from a post i did months ago if its sounds familiar to anyone!
NEXT: CHAPTER 2: HOW DO YOU ACTUALLY GET AT THE DATA IN MY ECU BEFORE YOU CAN MAP IT LIVE?
Ive made a bit of a start with the pictures, but i need to go and eat, so il make a start:
This is the Very starting point and is frequently asked:
CHAPTER 1: "What happens on live map day?"
ok, basically what will happen is as follows:
1)we will both sit down with a brew and
discuss your personal requirements.
2)we will go over your mechanical engine specification on paper so i have ALL the facts.
3)I will sit down and devise a base map according to the details YOU have given to me.
4) I will check the car for basic safety and fluids. (you would be AMAZED how many cars i turn away because they have no brakes, or no TAX!!)
5) I will take the car for a drive to asses its performance / flexibility in its current state.
6) I will return and check the fuel pumps flow performance and the fuel lines for any kinks etc and flow check the injectors in the flow bench whether they are new or old. The whole engine intake system will be pressure tested at 2.5bar for leaks and any rectified. Then a full setup will be performed on the engine in its current state. And the car test driven again.
7) I will then return and if everything was fine on the test drive i will fit the following components into your car:
Lambda sensor boss welded into your downpipe.
Boost gauge.
Detonation sensing equiptment.
Air charge temp monitoring equiptment.
Air/fuel ratio monitoring equiptment.
Injector duty cycle monitoring equiptment.
A live fault code reader for the management system.
A hardware emulator.
A DC / AC Convertor.
A laptop.
8) I will then drive away in your pride and joy and two of us will start mapping it, which basically entails adjust the fuel to the correct level for the boost we are running and then taking the spark advance to its limits and then back down again to our chosen level.
9) you will look really worried as we come back, poke around in your car and go out again.
10) We will probably come back again and poke around some more and you will say "hows it going?" "problems??" with a really worried look on your face.
11) We will say "its going fine" and go out again
12) We will finally return and say, "all done for you sir!" And you will collapse with relief!
13) You will pay us lots of your hard earned money in exchange for your old chip and your car keys and wheelspin away like a lunatic leaving us with unhappy neighbours!!
Thats the usual scenario, does that answer your questions or have i missed something?
Copied and modified from a post i did months ago if its sounds familiar to anyone!
NEXT: CHAPTER 2: HOW DO YOU ACTUALLY GET AT THE DATA IN MY ECU BEFORE YOU CAN MAP IT LIVE?
25-02-2004, 08:03 PM
#57
Ok,
The parts we need to access are within your vehicles Ecu, so first of all we need to access that.
They may be really really easy like a cossie, and as such just reside within a simple plug in chip, or they may be in a chip that look's like this:
For clarity, ive added a chip to the left of those now, and its a cossie chip
The cossie chip is 8k, the one on the right, 8mb IIRC. Technology eh?
Now that chip wont be in a socket, it will be soldered ono the board and require unsoldering. Do you fancy that job? No nor do i, thats Kennys specialist subject, im not capable of such work!
Heres some random pictures of other ecu packages and a couple of one being socketed for teh emulator to be fitted.
Ok,
So thats given you an idea just how much aggro it is to even get at the data within a modern car, and how easy it would be for us to wreck a Ł1000+ ecu at our cost.
NEXT: CHAPTER 3: What do we do with that chip?
The parts we need to access are within your vehicles Ecu, so first of all we need to access that.
They may be really really easy like a cossie, and as such just reside within a simple plug in chip, or they may be in a chip that look's like this:
For clarity, ive added a chip to the left of those now, and its a cossie chip
The cossie chip is 8k, the one on the right, 8mb IIRC. Technology eh?
Now that chip wont be in a socket, it will be soldered ono the board and require unsoldering. Do you fancy that job? No nor do i, thats Kennys specialist subject, im not capable of such work!
Heres some random pictures of other ecu packages and a couple of one being socketed for teh emulator to be fitted.
Ok,
So thats given you an idea just how much aggro it is to even get at the data within a modern car, and how easy it would be for us to wreck a Ł1000+ ecu at our cost.
NEXT: CHAPTER 3: What do we do with that chip?
25-02-2004, 08:08 PM
#58
Ok,
Weve got a chip now. So we put it in the eprom reader/programmer and extract its contents:
Once loaded up into an appropraite editor, it will look like this:
The data ive shown us working with is Escort Cosworth P8 just for Claritys sake and to keep it topical for Fords.
Note the slider bar in teh picture to give you some idea just how much data we are talking about, even in a tiny Cosworth map file.
Now it begins to get tricky..
NEXT: CHAPTER 4: What does all that mean?
Weve got a chip now. So we put it in the eprom reader/programmer and extract its contents:
Once loaded up into an appropraite editor, it will look like this:
The data ive shown us working with is Escort Cosworth P8 just for Claritys sake and to keep it topical for Fords.
Note the slider bar in teh picture to give you some idea just how much data we are talking about, even in a tiny Cosworth map file.
Now it begins to get tricky..
NEXT: CHAPTER 4: What does all that mean?
25-02-2004, 09:58 PM
#61
Chapter 4: What does all that mean?
Ok,
lets look at that same data in graphical form.
See how its now represented as lines, on a graph? Almost like a spreadsheet? Still not much of any interest is there?
Lets look at another part instead:
See anything there then? Well, i can actually, but i dont expect you to.
Lets look at the same part of ther file in 2d graphing mode.
Ahhh... now were getting somewhere 
So weve found a map, what needs to be done now?
Well, first we need to ascertain exactly what that map does There are various ways of doing this that i wont bore you with, suffice to say we have discovered it is indeed a fuel table.
Once we have a few more parameters deciphered such as rpm and load values, we can have the software converted to show us a more usefull display, as follows:
Now were getting somewhere... that looks almost useable!!
repeat all the above and ultimately we will find and catalogue all the other maps like this one for spark advance:
We can even view them in 3d if we wish:
Ultimately, we aim to end up with a nice list, like this one:
Once we have all this data catalogued, we can start to look at mapping our never before mapped model:
**this only has to be done once per ecu dataset type**
NEXT: CHAPTER 5: ok, smashing, great, now what?
Ok,
lets look at that same data in graphical form.
See how its now represented as lines, on a graph? Almost like a spreadsheet? Still not much of any interest is there?
Lets look at another part instead:
See anything there then? Well, i can actually, but i dont expect you to.
Lets look at the same part of ther file in 2d graphing mode.
Ahhh... now were getting somewhere
So weve found a map, what needs to be done now?
Well, first we need to ascertain exactly what that map does
There are various ways of doing this that i wont bore you with, suffice to say we have discovered it is indeed a fuel table. Once we have a few more parameters deciphered such as rpm and load values, we can have the software converted to show us a more usefull display, as follows:
Now were getting somewhere... that looks almost useable!!
repeat all the above and ultimately we will find and catalogue all the other maps like this one for spark advance:
We can even view them in 3d if we wish:
Ultimately, we aim to end up with a nice list, like this one:
Once we have all this data catalogued, we can start to look at mapping our never before mapped model:
**this only has to be done once per ecu dataset type**
NEXT: CHAPTER 5: ok, smashing, great, now what?
25-02-2004, 10:26 PM
#64
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I can see a table above that is for ignition which is load against rpm.
is this the end output for one particular variable?
what is all the stuff before hand?
as I dont get the x and y of the 2D noisey graph that then declines
is it already mutlipied up?
is this the end output for one particular variable?
what is all the stuff before hand?
as I dont get the x and y of the 2D noisey graph that then declines
is it already mutlipied up?
26-02-2004, 05:54 AM
#69
M Brian,
I can see a table above that is for ignition which is load against rpm.
is this the end output for one particular variable?
I can see a table above that is for ignition which is load against rpm.
is this the end output for one particular variable?
Sorry pal, im still not getting the question mate
All i can say is that these 2 graphs:
&
Are EXACTLY the same maps, just displayed differently. If that doesnt clarify what your asking, please let me know Melv.
M Brian,
what is all the stuff before hand?
as I dont get the x and y of the 2D noisey graph that then declines
is it already mutlipied up?
what is all the stuff before hand?
as I dont get the x and y of the 2D noisey graph that then declines
is it already mutlipied up?
The 2d Graph is EXACTLY the same as the numbered version.
Example:
IS EXACTLY the same as this:
Its just represented differently, instead of just 2 numbers side by side, say 255 and 244, they are plotted ands linked with lines so that we can see patterns forming.
Vertical graph shows actual decimal value, horizontal simply shows file address, but numbered in my chosen chunk. 256 columns in those examples.
EscortWRC,
Can you define the RPM points, or are you stuck with what they give you (stops at 7000) ????
Can you define the RPM points, or are you stuck with what they give you (stops at 7000) ????
The problem here is that we cannot ADD anymore. Consequently, if i was to change the end point to 8000rpm id then have an interpolation break between 6600 & 8000 rpm. Thats not the end of the world as P8 has enough to spread out quite well, but some of the earlier 13column stuff is much trickier to get decent setpoints woth if you want to map right up to 8.
Hope this helps. Il try and get onto Chapter 5 later, although ive lost a little creative inspiration somewhere today, so if anyone's got any questions, fire away.. lol
26-02-2004, 06:53 AM
#70
Testing the future
so now we can see how the fuel and ignition looks like for a std escos P8 which is great
however, we are talking in the main about live mapping and modifying to get more power, so hopefully chapter 5 will go towards covering that.
for example, typically on a cossie or whatever, we talk about going from std to stage 1. this involves increasing the boost, and setting the correct fueling and ignition for that boost. the std map will have the load break points up to std boost (10 psi or whatever), so how do you add the load sites (or indeed shift the break points) for the additional Stage 1 boost (up to 15 psi or whatever)?
any chance of posting the tables for a std and stage 1 so that we can see what changes? we can imagine that the more boost that you run, the more fuel you need, but what about the ignition curve?
however, we are talking in the main about live mapping and modifying to get more power, so hopefully chapter 5 will go towards covering that.
for example, typically on a cossie or whatever, we talk about going from std to stage 1. this involves increasing the boost, and setting the correct fueling and ignition for that boost. the std map will have the load break points up to std boost (10 psi or whatever), so how do you add the load sites (or indeed shift the break points) for the additional Stage 1 boost (up to 15 psi or whatever)?
any chance of posting the tables for a std and stage 1 so that we can see what changes? we can imagine that the more boost that you run, the more fuel you need, but what about the ignition curve?
26-02-2004, 08:45 AM
#74
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That is well ace posting by stu
I lately got a westfield with an MBE ecu, downloaded the software and made the mapping cable - its well good fun to play on as its so old and basic and my first learning block
Taking hex into emulator and decoding etc - I'll leave that well well alone - actually I have been told to leave the live map function well alone on my MBE LOL but I'm sure a little trimming of the fuel and a top up of advance wont hurt LOL rattle rattle
cheers for the insight
Martin
I lately got a westfield with an MBE ecu, downloaded the software and made the mapping cable - its well good fun to play on as its so old and basic and my first learning block
Taking hex into emulator and decoding etc - I'll leave that well well alone - actually I have been told to leave the live map function well alone on my MBE LOL
but I'm sure a little trimming of the fuel and a top up of advance wont hurt LOL rattle rattle cheers for the insight
Martin
26-02-2004, 08:49 AM
#75
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its the 2nd one I dont get. I understand the first as that is the ignition vs load and rpm - quite straight forward on the outset.
but I still dont get the graph of the others or the table.
and the table above gives address? yet the graph plots the numbers? is the table in like Hex or something? is that what im missing?
what does 245 or 255 etc represent?
but I still dont get the graph of the others or the table.
and the table above gives address? yet the graph plots the numbers? is the table in like Hex or something? is that what im missing?
what does 245 or 255 etc represent?
26-02-2004, 08:55 AM
#76
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just read bumps reply - looks like it was the hex bit I was missunderstanding!
still dont get what the hex is representing though?
e.g. FF - 255 -- 255 whats?
still dont get what the hex is representing though?
e.g. FF - 255 -- 255 whats?
26-02-2004, 09:21 AM
#77
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Good stuff stu, i don't wanna ask questions yet because i can see your looseing people at this stage so i don't want to push the technical yet lol, if you need a push to get you going though
The human factor lol
if mapping on super UL how many degrees would you retard the timing from the point of detonation to allow a saftey margin for crap fuel and/or if people filled up with normal unleaded. do you say advance to the point of det and then retard for example 2/4 degrees or is it something that you play by ear as it were?
26-02-2004, 09:31 AM
#78
20K+ Super Poster.
i THINK melv that 255 is just the data value and can mean fookin anything...
it's the ECu itself (ie the other million chips in the box) that knows what 255 means
please correct me if i'm wrong or going off on a tangent...
also after reading that i'm DEFINATELY getting off my arse and sending you my turbotechnics DCU as i'm confident you can decode and re-map it! infact i'm gonna put it in the post RIGHT NOW :P
it's the ECu itself (ie the other million chips in the box) that knows what 255 means
please correct me if i'm wrong or going off on a tangent...
also after reading that i'm DEFINATELY getting off my arse and sending you my turbotechnics DCU as i'm confident you can decode and re-map it! infact i'm gonna put it in the post RIGHT NOW :P
26-02-2004, 09:36 AM
#79
CHAPTER 5: ok, smashing, great, now what?
Ok,
Were prepared now and have access to the maps needed to actually do something to this beast, so what next?
Well next comes the hardware. Im not going to directly show you the hardware i use as its taken a lot of trial and error of junk hard/software and a LOTof wasted cash to arrive at a package that is worldclass in its field. Im sure most of you will understand and appreciate that fact.
So first we need to hook our hardware into YOUR car.
Det cans:
Heres a pic of them hooked up to a YB lump:
And the other end of em with all the wire n stuff on the dash here in the same car. If you look closely you can see the channel switch, this allows me to swop between any of the 4 pickups ive insalled on the engine:
Ok,
Next we need to fit something to monitor the most important aspect of a turbocharged engines survival chemistry.. the fuel content, or AFR as we call it. (Air fuel ratio)
The one we prefer to use, look's like this at the in car end:
The sensor looks like any other lambda sensor, but so they can charge me serious money, it comes with a full calibration certificate like this:
And will be fitted either directly into the downpipe or inserted in the tailpipe
like so.
(Tailpipe option requires oxygen sensing capability ideally)
Now if it happens to be a Marelli system with Pectel board, we will also itstall a Pectel monitor. As seen here:
Ok.
Were getting there... now we have to get the laptop to run your car.. this is the expensive bit.. lol
NEXT: CHAPTER 6: Running the car from a laptop
Ok,
Were prepared now and have access to the maps needed to actually do something to this beast, so what next?
Well next comes the hardware. Im not going to directly show you the hardware i use as its taken a lot of trial and error of junk hard/software and a LOTof wasted cash to arrive at a package that is worldclass in its field. Im sure most of you will understand and appreciate that fact.
So first we need to hook our hardware into YOUR car.
Det cans:
Heres a pic of them hooked up to a YB lump:
And the other end of em with all the wire n stuff on the dash here in the same car. If you look closely you can see the channel switch, this allows me to swop between any of the 4 pickups ive insalled on the engine:
Ok,
Next we need to fit something to monitor the most important aspect of a turbocharged engines survival chemistry.. the fuel content, or AFR as we call it. (Air fuel ratio)
The one we prefer to use, look's like this at the in car end:
The sensor looks like any other lambda sensor, but so they can charge me serious money, it comes with a full calibration certificate like this:
And will be fitted either directly into the downpipe or inserted in the tailpipe
like so.
(Tailpipe option requires oxygen sensing capability ideally)
Now if it happens to be a Marelli system with Pectel board, we will also itstall a Pectel monitor. As seen here:
Ok.
Were getting there... now we have to get the laptop to run your car.. this is the expensive bit.. lol
NEXT: CHAPTER 6: Running the car from a laptop
