Bosch

Okay, here's one for them turbo nuts.

I've been looking into zetec turbo engines and the cost involved. Now would it make sense doing the Zetec turbo using the 2.0 zetec or going for the st170 engine which is duratec. Of course the focus Rs engine Isn't cheap to buy.

Your thoughts

xr2wishy

iTrader: (2)

the st170 isn't a duratec, neither is the rs engine, they are all blacktop zetecs with minor differences in terms of head/rod+piston combo's.
depends on power and budget.
to get 300bhp, st170 bottom end with standard blacktop head with valve springs swapped out.
then it's focus rs engine.
then onto a standard blacktop with rods/pistons/cams/valve springs changed.

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

best route to go is to fit a frs tall block, people have seen 390bhp from the standard bottom end and no zt oil pump problems

then st170 bottom end with frs 1.8mm headgasket and black top head, with uprated valve springs, good for around 300bhp

silvertop with block bored to 86mm and fitted with c20let pistons and rods modded to suit, and uprated valve springs with frs gaskets and arp rod bolts good for 270bhp, its worth thinking about at this point that its only an extra Ł250 for steel rods and they come with arp bolts so will then piss 300bhp

Dennis_Wiseman

iTrader: (1)

You could build up and fully forge a black or silver top well below the price of buying most Focus RS lumps so for that probably better going slock 2 litre Zetec.

QplateRST!

My engine cost
Ł700 for pistons and rods
Ł150 for silver top engine
Ł300 for machine work and bearings
Ł550 for ported head
Ł140 cat cams valve springs
Ł180 area six exhaust cam
Ł50 Gaskets and bolts

Total Ł2070 for a 500hp capable engine

Really could do with an external oil pump or dry sump to hit 500hp

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

As my message, no oil pump problems on a frs tall block, that in its self are worth more to me than any zt

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

The lack of Focus RS oil pump failures is interesting, particularly as they use the same block, crank and I think oil pump as a normal Black Top.

Focus RS do use larger gudgeon pins though and there was a theory floating about that it was somehow related through harmonics or something, as a majority of failures in Zetec turbos seemed to have occurred in engines using the smaller sized gudgeon pins.

Who knows! Black Tops seem happy enough at 450bhp and for some reason Silver Tops seem to be ticking time bombs at that power though. Anything below 400bhp I wouldn't be at all concerned about oil pump failures.

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

As I said there is no evidence of frs oil pump failures and I got friends with 500bhp cars on original pump

xr2wishy

iTrader: (2)

I didn't get an oil pump failure pushing a gt3071r at 2bar through my zetec with a 68k standard blacktop pump for a while, frequently hitting 7400rpm limiter.

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

i think it tends to be the home pro engines that idiots put together

if your zetec is bolted up right and treated to a full engine balance and the oil pump checked and cleaned then there shouldnt be a problem, but i wouldnt want to build an engine and be unsure if it will hold together.

i keep thinking i might get a problem but im only going for 250ish bhp, but im looking to build up another engine instead of modding what i have.

my next spec i hope to have is
frs tall block
inlet cam change
tubular manifold
custom inlet
gt28

QplateRST!

I no of a few tuner built zetecs having oil pump failures ! Lucas Beeing on of them personally I just think its luck!

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

That's because it wasn't making enough power
In all seriousness, Black Tops seem to last longer. I had a mate who made 440bhp on a standard Black Top and gave it death for many miles and that was fine.

Plenty of tuner built or fully balanced engines have let go.

See this thread when Devil Developements decided to kill a 500bhp engine in the name of research!

https://passionford.com/forum/genera...mp-failed.html

Lucas was a big spec, big budget build too, but they were the early days of Zetec turbo tuning. I know of a Silver Top Zetec turbo that was doing over 500bhp on standard pump and given a caining every single day as a daily driver and that was fine - but think he was a lucky one.

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

Seems to me that I will never get oil pump problems from what I want out of one

But 7600rpm and 2.2bar on a standard pump was going some with a gt35r

My limit would be 380/400bhp on my next build

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Yup, would be fine at that power IMO. Hope so anyway as that's what mine will be doing after mapping next month

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

I've just got a cossie 4x4 turbo for my current zetec turbo but need to mod it to work with my external gate and then go get it mapped, should piss 250bhp which will do for now

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

i expect a lot of people miss this when inspecting their pumps/cranks (this is an extreme example):

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I would also bet that some people change the pump, but don't sort the crank...

food for thought

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

a few engine builders think that every zetec that they have worked on has needed some sort of crank work?, so could be

Ericroll

I am new to this concept could you help me out to resolve the problems on how to sort the cranks? Is there any special technique which will keep me away from buying a new costly pump.

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

Get a really low mile black top to start with or a brand new crate motor, and get a proper engine builder to assemble the tall block

Dennis_Wiseman

iTrader: (1)

Yeah but they come at a huge price difference for the privilege. In the long term it might be worth it but it all depends what your targets are.


In terms of why the oil pumps fail i reckon its down to crank speed rather than harmonics. They don't appear to fail on highly tuned N/A set up reving to god knows what rpm, just turbo's running big numbers seem to be the main victims.

If someones running 'sensible (ish) power and the oil pressure is properly monitored it need not be a ticking time bomb

luke19790_3

That what I did, got a crate motor but it will be fitted with a wet sump setup.

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

You can buy frs tall blocks once in a while for Ł1100/1200 so not that badly priced when pistons rods and gaskets and timing belt kit would cost that for a black top

Then you need, block modded for oil returns, breather ect, Ł250 worth of valve springs or shimmed frs ones, so not that much more

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

Good way of doing it, head never skimmed, no miles on the bores, fresh crank and oil pump, good way of doing it, I guess it will cost Ł500 more but it's worth it for piece of mind

luke19790_3

Engine was Ł250, sump setup is 1100 but if it saves the engine than it pays for its self.

luke19790_3

I'm of to the states later in the year so will look out for some pistons an rods

Cossie.jack

Can I just ask what's the difference between silvertop zetec and a blacktop zetec?

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

Was that just a bottom end? If it was a whole engine, where from?

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

Defo a good idea it will save you around Ł250/300

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

almost everything is different, except the crank.

luke19790_3

Complete end, someone I knew got then changed their mind

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

Bargain really mate