XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Lee at Devil Developments who's a bit handy when it comes to building a Zetec turbo or two (built a few 440+bhp ones and built a Silvertop that made 500+ bhp on a standard Silvertop pump) is building a very special new Zetec engine for his Fiesta ST demo/project car.

Right now the Fiesta already has a good spec engine (see below), but he's decided to push it as far as it will go until something gives up in the name of developement in order to see what the new all-singing-all-dancing engine will need. This is mainly for the oil pump issue, as right now it runs a totally standard, secondhand oil pump (Blacktop bottom end) which Lee normally uses and has no failures so far on standard dampeners and flywheels. The engine so far has done 4000 very hard miles at 430bhp over the last few months with no issues.

So with talk of the oil pump failure issues and wondering whether it's worth going dry sump on his next engine, he's keen to see if that will break first when he starts putting more boost and higher revs into it.

The testing began today. Spec of the car currently:
- 2.1 Blacktop bottom end with low comp pistons, Eagle steel rods etc...#
- Totally standard secondhand/weathered oil pump
- Stage 3 ported and polished head done by Nick at AMS
- Standard valves
- Standard exhaust cam
- Custom inlet cam; 11.5mm of lift
- Cat Cams valve springs
- KMS mangament mapped by Lee
- Area Six/Devil Developments inlet manifold with shorter runners to produce more power higher up
- Devil Developements/Airtec exhaust manifold
- GT35 turbo and 38mm external Turbosmart wastegate
- Airtec intercooler and radiator
- MTX gearbox with long ratios, Quaife ATB

For the test Lee has fitted some 2000cc injectors so it won't run out of fuel (two 044 pumps already fitted).

I love the idea of seeing what it will die at and using it as a test bed, good to see someone pushing development of the Zetec engine too!

His next engine by the way will be a 2.3 with a stroker crank, Nikisil linered, completely new test/development head and will be fitted with M12 Cosworth stud and nut kit. The aim is 600+ bhp.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Has he managed to source the large port Zetec head?

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

First run when boost was upped to 1.7 bar. Taken the revs to 7600rpm...

Adam31

Sounds good, would like to see what the standard pump is capable of.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

There is an engine running on 600hp with standard pump

Luca

iTrader: (2)

whats the rev range on that graph there Si ?

Adam31

Ok, why all the talk about the zetec pumps being weak then?600bhp is pushing the upper limits of any zetec engine is it not?

From the above can we take it that upgrading is not required or is it just luck?

Fiesta_Jed

The second weak link on the 2L engine is the rods.

Please tell me they have not used eagle rods in the 2.3 enigne.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Luke; goes up in 300rpm increments, 6700rpm peak on that graph.

That's what Lee is trying to find out really! There is that 585bhp Zetec which has been fine, but that could be pot luck. If two do it, it's a bit more likely the Blacktop pumps at least are alright...

Lee wants 580bhp from this engine ideally.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

What rods have you heard of failing?

There are two versions of Eagle rods by the way, the normal and heavy duty version. Luca is on Eagle rods too I believe so wouldn't be so sure they are "weak".

Luca

iTrader: (2)

It's interesting to see but yes there have been a few engines on engine dyno's running 500hp, 522hp, 550hp and just under 600hp all on standard pumps. These have not failed BUT some have since when they were driven in the car.

It's a difficult one to address but this test is interesting to say the least

Adam31

It is looking good for the high power zetec turbo's then. Its good we have people that are willing to put their engine on the line to prove a point and test limits.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Im on Eagle yes, they work for me.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Exactly that Luke, it's just really interesting as it's very rare to see someone put their engine up as a test bed like this!

With regards to what you said about pumps going after use; I've heard of pumps failing literally after the first time they came on big boost and high revs for the first time. Liam had a couple go like this.

EDIT: Beat me to it!

Fiesta_Jed

Ive heard loads of stories. Most people on the MLR regard them as junk.

There loads of threads about there rods being being out of balance and there cranks being bent.

A quick search on google will get you some threads.

This rod came out of a zetec turbo......

Luca

iTrader: (2)

That rod failed through something else other than just being a weak rod!...

look at the colour of it... that got HOT!..

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Agreed, that spun a shell and someone kept driving it I should think.

So possibly a result of pump failure or some other issue.

SiZT

What flywheel? Stock? and is he going to try with a lightened flywheel? Ask him to check for crank walk after it's got some miles under it's belt

Good to see someone is testing theories (y)

Fiesta_Jed

Yes the rod failed because it spun a bearing.

They were the only pictures i had of eagle rods that had failed.

read these

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-eng...rods-fail.html

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...-HP-heres-why&

http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...ighlight=eagle

http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...ighlight=eagle

Chip

iTrader: (3)

IIRC eagle is essentially just "generic chinese" with a name printed on, it like PEC etc too.

If you want a really good quality rod, try Arrows IMHO

That failure though, with a spun shell getting it so hot would have happened to ANY rod

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Never heard of a rod fail on a Zetec turbo as of yet, so will be interesting to see one.

Standard flywheel by the way.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Second dyno run with a little mapping done as it was running rich (new lambda) made more power at same sort of boost (1.7 BAR).

Then the head lifted (hence why the revs stop as Lee stopped it.)

There seems to be a few Zetecs that have similar problems at this kind of power figure... Lee is skimming the head as he thinks it may have very slightly warped after he last took it off to develop a new cam, and didn't skim it when he replaced it.

It will be back together, possibly fitted with M12 stud and nut kit and more boost for tomorrow or Thursday with luck. I'll keep this post updated...

Adam31

Thats good power, shame about the head lifting. Sitech built a CGI blocked zetec turbo for Andrew Martin early this year and it made around 520bhp....sure it had cosworth pistons and rods with a mental ex mountune ported head.

Hope Lee keeps the testing up.

andy escos

iTrader: (1)

good power so far i look forward to the next instalment

are you videoing it on the dyno ? if it fails big time would be a shame not to have it on video .

Rs1

iTrader: (1)

Its never going to be big power that does the pump in but needing rpm to make use of a 35r will certainly test the OE pump..... probably to destruction.
Seen as dry sump is.... well its expensive and requires space to stick a oil tank wouldnt it be better for some development being done on a OE location pump that can do the job? Think that would get some serious interest by the zetec turbo squad.

nevsrevs

love this fair play, we need to keep pushing forward with these motors, they are so nice to drive, love the power delivery

robp-tt

iTrader: (1)

Will he be driving the car to see how it lasts on the road?

clarke5700

noing lee yes

robp-tt

iTrader: (1)

I think that will be the real test to the oil pump as more die on the road than on the dyno, really intrested to see how it goes aswell. Ime still going drysump on mine though as I cant afford to run the risk of killing a pump

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Good point!

We know power isn't the problem, it's a combination of boost/cylinder pressure and revs, hence why this is interesting as no one has really gone to these levels of boost/revs before. Or if they have done it's not been done in public.

He will drive it on the road for sure if it stays in one piece. I've got a feeling it won't though baring in mind the idea is to put 2.5 bar through it revving to 8000+ rpm. What power are you hoping for? There's a few Zetec turbo engines making big boost/power, with a decent amount of miles on standard Blacktop pumps.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Well just spoke to Lee.

He stripped the engine today, and found the oil pump had shattered. As the KMS ECU is linked to the oil pressure and designed to shut the engine down if it drops it saved the engine before Lee even noticed as it seems the head lifted at the exact same time. This occured the first time he tried to put 2.2 bar through it, and rev limit was 7600rpm.

The ECU saved the engine by the way; bottom end looks fine, just needs a new pump.

It's a shame but then this was the whole idea of the test; to determine whether the new much more expensive engine would need it.

Lee is still testing though, he's planning to machine a nylon bush into the crank/pump to take up some slack in order to see if it is 110% the nose of the crank flexing. The bush won;t last in the long term of course, it's just to be sure of what went wrong.

Fair play!

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

And it seems (as we suspected) it's not nessacarily miles that kills them. This was the first time the engine had ever had this much boost and levl of revs put through it.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Seems unlikely to me the boost would effect it, and im sure people doing N/A builds reguarly see that sort of relatively modest rpm?

So im certainly interested as to exactly why it failed, but thats never easy to determine in situations like this.

Mister G

still amazing that the pump can handle over double the intended max zetec power let alone an engine of that spec.... Looks like the ecu control was a wise investment!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

how is the pump effected by more power though?
Its just supplying oil, not doing anything power related especially.

Its demands dont really change directly with power.

Even if you say the oil gets hotter and thinner etc, that isnt any real extra load on a pump in a way that should effect its reliability IMHO, sure it might result in a drop in oil pressure which could kill the engine, but the pump itself shouldnt die as a result.

Big Will_

For what it's worth - I did a NASP ST170 build last year that's doing 210+bhp which revs to 8200rpm.

Customer has been using it as his daily driver and done 20,000 miles so far in it.

That's using a billet geared pump, knife edged balanced crank, TTV solid flywheel and standard crank pulley.

I'd love to destructively test a couple of engines in the way Lee is doing - at the moment I recommend billet geared pumps on any builds regularly seeing over 7500rpm.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Chip; it's not boost as such, but high cylinder pressures together with high revs causing nose flex. There are NA race engines revving to 8500rpm with no recorded fauilures. As you say though, the hard part is finding out exactly for sure what happened, hence nylon bush test for a start.

Will; it's interesting stuff for sure and great to see someone test the theories.

Although Lee has found something else very interesting when taking the engine apart

Anyone who has or knows of an oil pump failure: can you confirm what size gudgeon pins you were using?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If the nose of the crank is flexing, then you're certainly going to need to be moving to dry sump I would think, as no pump is going to be able to handle that realistically.

The crank wont like it for long either if its moving that far I wouldnt have thought either, so will probably fatigue.

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Hence why billet gears seem to break too.

If it is that of course.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Agreed, if is the nose moving, then billet gears or not its going to get fucked up.