Sonic Boom

iTrader: (11)

Everything the F88 has but half the price please
I'm happy to be a Beta tester
Rich

Sonic Boom

iTrader: (11)

RRP is in the region of £2000 I have heard that it can be got alittle cheaper.
Rich

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

If you are having lots of "programmable options" and say the ability to add and customise lots of inputs and outputs, then when you release the software package make it such that the end user doesnt need to learn C or visual basic to programme it. Ie simple interface for voltage or resistance based inputs or simple sensors. eg you could manually type in the graph data for say a resistance or voltage based sensor, label the parameters and then specify how it is used. Simple Switchable inputs could be easily controlled through the interface.

Might make quite a bit of work to have a easy to use interface but you can limit it to certain types of sensors that don't impact the map that severely.

Not just limited to engine controls either. Most OEM stuff is more of a "car control unit" rather than engine control unit.

eg fuel level input - for a guage.
gear temp/diff temp - linked to pump and or cooler fans - eg gearbox pump turns on at oil temp xx and fans kick in at yy and warning light illuminates at zz.

the usual water injection, anti lag, methanol control. boost control, launch control etc.

Maybe even a simple traction control based on ABS sensors or similar to detect wheel slip.

I think a really cool feature would if you have enough spare processing power and onboard memory would be a graphics driver that can be used to run a LCD colour dash unit.

Or perhaps develop an add on embedded microPC small "blackbox" that runs a cut down display version of the mapping software callibrated as a dash display. That way you can keep it seperate from the ECU but connected via the comms port. That way the ECU doesnt know if its mapping software or dash software (it doesnt need to know) as how the information the ECU is transmitting is used is a function of the software on the other side.

If you wanted to go really posh, the software package would have the dash display function as standard and then once loaded onto a micropc (like the ones you see in industry, marine, heavy machinery etc) then in theory a user could plug a small usb keyboard/mouse unit (plenty micro stuff out there for car PC's etc) into the car and use the dash display for mapping too.

ie if you buy the full ECU plus micropc dash display unit then no need for a seperate laptop for mapping.

Hell with modern operating systems you could even have a plug in second display option so the dash unit can display a dash while a passenger has a plug in display and keyboard to do live mapping.

CrOwSoN15

Interesting stuff!

It's only just occurred to me that you're on here as well, I'm Ben that commented about the ZT mk3 Fiesta on Facebook

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

First and foremost - professional surface mounted components for reliability and full moisture proofing of the circuitry.

Once the hardware is good to go - then top of my head and in no particular order, some things you don't see enough of in lower end ECU's.
(And some you never see but would be awesome to have)

• User adjustable load and speed breakpoints for all tables (Fuel/Spark/Boost etc)
• Accurate PWM temperature based idle control.
• Closed loop boost control
• Adaptation functionality
• Auto tune
• Good knock control
• Thermal control of boost and fuel tables via EGT input
• Live trace adjustments
• Replayable trace history
• A trace you can actually see on the screen in daylight (not black and bloody green)
• Auto table rescaling after inputting new fuel pressure and/or injector size
• Fan output control
• Vehicle speed input and output control
• Fuel table targets in AFR with correct modelling to achieve the results
• Option to change from speed density to Alpha N.

Would be nice to see an option to base the firmware on a modern torque model with accurate axle data to give it correct gear knowledge and thus spark, boost and fuel tables for every gear instead of one generic table.

JamesH

iTrader: (21)

Simple things that make a difference, when viewing a map with the engine running, have it highlight the area it's current using. And be able to click on a map or label etc, and get a short definition of what it does, what it's linked to, and what may influence it.

Simple things like that help with it being user friendly

mechanic28

iTrader: (5)

one that makes a nice cup of tea,as I aint got a clue what you lot are going on about lol

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

No problem - bit short of time but can spare ten mins while James gets car ready for the dyno.

As you know, an ECU is actually a Torque controller. It controls how much torque the engine applies to our driven wheels and its based on the position of our right foot.
Traditionally we just map the system to do XYZ at any given load with correct afr/spark and then the engine just does what it does, but as things have evolved and power has increased, a better control system was required and that is when Bosch and Siemens took up using the Torque based model.

The torque based model allows you to map different torque outputs for each gear and uses Spark/Fuel/Boost/EGR/Throttle/Vanos etc to give different amounts of torque output at the wheels depending on many pre-determined input values. Anyone who has driven an Escort RS Turbo with 250bhp will realise the value of the mapper being able to tailor the engines power to the available traction of the vehicle, or limits of the drivetrain.

To elaborate on that point - have any of you ever wondered why modern cars don't wheelspin in 1st gear anymore and they often feel faster from 3rd gear onwards?
That's the difference between a standard ECU that just gives full power at all times, and a torque based model that will allow the programmer to decide how, when and where maximum torque is available.
Its all about driveability and control because, as we all well know "Power is nothing without control"

In the Ford world - Focus RS Owners will have felt this model change when they have had the 1st and 2nd gear torque limiters raised via remap and are in awe at how much more exciting the car is to drive, but often admit that its actually bloody slower if the road is anything other than dry. LOL

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I know what your saying mate, I truly do, but when all is said and done, if you want the best from the vehicle then you need to control the power you have.
If we take the last YB I mapped for example, it made around 520ftlb of torque and in 4th and 5th it is devastatingly fast... but 3rd gear? Ropey, and pretty much like a loaded gun... trying to come out of a corner with too much throttle had you in danger of hurting yourself and other people (Sometiems your passenger as you elbow him in the chip with your flailing arms trying to correct endless oversteer).
2nd gear. Forget it. 1st gear? See 2nd.

Now put that 520ftlb car against a 350ftlb identical T34 car on a twisty country lane on a dry road and the results would be devastating.
The lower powered car would annihilate the more powerful one and the driver would be less scared doing so as he would spend 90% of the race in more control then the driver of the wildly over-steering, smoke billowing monster behind him.

Now lets look at a different scenario:
Give the more powerful car a torque based ECU that limited first gear torque to 200ft lb, 2nd gear to 250ftlb, 3rd gear to 400ft lb and the two upper gears to the full 550ftlb and see what happens in the next race.

The torque model works with throttle or rpm so we can just drop the midrange torque if we like, but retain the top end power once the traction limiting low end power s out of the way.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Totally agree, but who has the development budget for that?
Im surprised nobody has just grabbed an old Siemens MS54, reverse engineered the software - rewritten it to be used with a fisher price interface and then had the hardware replicated in china to be honest.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Kind of topical - this is an image I put on facebook some time ago of the maps and scalars in a 2013 Transit turbodiesel for the Air Mass meter. more than the Cossie has for the entire run calibration. LOL




These make up a very small but important part of the 10s of thousands of scalars and tables in a modern ECU.

natehall

iTrader: (2)

I see what your saying MTech about torque maps for different gears - that you dont want to get into limiting a driver who has the final say..

but what about how many torque maps (as well as throttle position maps) that F1 cars have, from my understanding they deliver the power differently based upon how the throttle pedle is apply (quick 0-100% WOT is totally different to 0-100% applied progressively and completely different in different gears. This is done to give the driver more control of how he wants the power applied not to limit the car..

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

When i mean dash, i mean the factory clocks ditched and replaced with a LCD or OLED style display for ALL the functions, speedo, tacho etc. You couldnt do that with an android app or similar as youd need to be able to drive the car if you left your phone at home etc

JamesH

iTrader: (21)

Why do those sort of names look familiar? have you ever had to look through a strategy guide?

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Last one I had was for a 1990's Renault.
If you happen to have anything interesting like that I would love to see it. sales@remapping.co.uk

St3V3_C

Does torque modelling take account of a wet/dry road etc.?

nevsrevs

Lets test it out on my mx5 I want to charge Matt, not sure to t charge or s charge yet, but I defo want to use stand alone over a e manage unit, only down the road from you too lol.

JamesH

iTrader: (21)

You're very lucky then Stu!

Unfortunately it's not worth me chancing my job to get hold of some, but I think you'll be shocked when you see an up to date one

nevsrevs

Yea this project is just a thought at moment, but I might start gathering bits for it. Keep us posted

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

wouldnt be reliable long term.

The reason why its an important feature IMO is that ignoring shonky old fords with cable speedo's and a seperate lot of sensors for the dash; most cars of the last 15 years and newer have one set of sensors for both dash and ecu functions and the newer you get, the more integrated to the ECU the dashboard becomes.

Switching to an aftermarket ecu then becomes a problem. even for cars like focus mk1 which a lot are getting modified, engine swaps into focossies etc and even the early mk2s etc are game.

Not everyone wants to retrofit an older mechanical fed dash,

and also not everyone wants a racelogic or stack dash either, and even then often they need sensors of thier own to run.

So a dash feature integrated into or available as a bolt on option to your ecu gives the full package in one hit.

Also lets be honest, monchrome black on green digidashs are hardly revolutionary in "display" technology terms. Something colour and with customisable screeens and switchable screens (except say speed for legal purposes) would be bang on with modern technology, offer everything a technopetrol head could want in customisation and also would look cool as fuck!!

Also warning light implementation is dead easy for simple car circuits, a simple earthed input from say indicator, head lamp, brake fluid etc can switch on a logo displayed on the dash.

You could even add in oil pressure sensors, fluid sensors, etc with setable alarms and maybe for oil pressure an emergency "engine kill" threshold that makes the dash go skitzo and engine cut in 5 seconds unless you push alarm override.

The ECU could really then live upto the term "engine management".


Also i imagine such a one stop system would appeal to elements of the lower level motorsport arena, custom car scene and lot of the track day and kit car scene.

Ginge !

What happens with canbus systems when you swop ecu's these days ?

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

one that runs a output for running my missus vibrator

markk

iTrader: (2)

Have a look at Gems GWV4 software, everything mentioned here GEMS do for a fraction of the price of Life/Motec etc

JonnyBravo

The syvecs ecu certainly offers some sort of torque limiting output per gear etc. I see they use it on the new GTR's to keep the gearbox in one piece as those things make monstrous low down torque.

In theory a new high spec ecu to suit everyone but for a small price sounds great but in reality a S6 Syvecs isn't massive money and does just about everything you could ever want, I'm sure the same could be said for many other ecus, using Motec as an example is maybe not ideal as they do know how to charge and as we all know you pay extra for certain features which is IMO a bit of a joke on what is already a very expensive product.

stevieturbo

Firstly ignoring features.

A simple software interface that doesnt rely on a stupid bloody mouse and small icons with hundreds of menus and screens.
Trying to work with some modern stuff in a moving vehicle is a bloody nightmare.

Full keyboard options for tuning makes it so simple and less room for clicking the wrong thing.
The Simtek/Alcatek stuff for Subarus is superb in this respect. ( I think it's a bit of a copy of Pectel software, although Ive never used Pectel myself )

A simple live ghost trace of cells passed through during a pull. A colour change in any cell where knock was detected during a pull. Both to make easy and fast user changes.

All outputs to be fully flexible via PWM and a user can build their own 2d/3d/4d tables for each.
Ability to name each input/output ( some ecu's operate fixed naming...very annoying )

Perhaps a dedicated PWM fuel pump output/s to control a pump via a solid state relay instead of simple off on. Again, this could be based on a 2d/3d/4d table.
Same could be said for an electric water pump...again, things that are becoming more popular.
PWM outputs of 10-20khz seem to be preferred for motor control

OBD compliant. Whether for future proofing any legalities with aftermarket parts, or simply to open up an array of cheap information displays. yes most ecu makers say OBD is shit and slow...so fuck. There are dozens of dash display units and app's available for very little money.

or a software option to use a tablet etc as a display, but with minimal access to tuning so no tampering occurs, either accidental or deliberate.

CAN comms for faster speed dash displays or expansion with other devices, again to future proof etc.
Plus CAN as mentioned to keep other onboard systems happy.

Substantial datalogging ability. If onboard memory is difficult, force the user to install an SD card.
Also a long term history that is less easily deleted by the user. More aimed at tuners for customers who's car "breaks down while just driving along at 30mph"....only to find out from their mates, they were actually diffing the shite out of it bouncing off the limiter for ages.

DBW. I'd say full DBW maps for each and every gear ( or road speed, or whatever other parameter the user wants ). Yes you could just mirror pedal movement, but having a different map for each gear would be like traction control, but also help driveability in lower gears.

Features like traction control and others are just a given if it is to be a top end unit.

also, USB or LAN comms, perhaps with a wireless option. That should almost go without saying these days though

I think the hardware aspect is the easiest, the most work will be the software interface.

Oh, and built in oscilloscope for monitoring both inputs and outputs.

And as far as packaging or connectors go. Either having pinouts the same as a big name competitor...or even supplying patch harnesses for an easy ecu swap would be no bad thing

Case in point. Haltech PS1000/2000 use almost identical pinouts to an Mx00 gold box. Clearly no accident there.

stevieturbo

Whilst I agree about Motec....every time I use one, it's hard not to be impressed. They are very very flexible, and their tech and reference support is great. All of which does cost them money. Even their recent webinars are superb features....other brands are now trying to do this too, but Motec have led the way.
But agree it is very annoying to have to pay a substantial sum for what is already in the ecu, but software locked.

Though no matter how good they are...still couldnt ever bring myself to buy one for my own car lol

SiZT

Pretty much every standalone ecu can run boost by gear provided they have a reference to what gear they're in at the time (either an actual gear position switch or road speed vs rpm)

stevieturbo

Not sure he means just boost limiting or some other method of torque reduction.

Another option...

Built in misfire and/or knock detection as per OEM via the coils, or via crank position reference, with perhaps a knock sensor to back it up ( given knock sensors always pick up background noise. )

natehall

iTrader: (2)

Hi Matt - Out of interest what price point and target user are you aiming for?

Obviously this will incur limitations to hit the market you are aiming for..

I am interested in one of these - but as one of the guys not running a cossie budget price point is always a issue for me (hence me having a megasquirt already)

Also how are you looking to offer things like pinouts for wiring? Low and High impedance injectors and things like this.

I am a novice mapper - it may be an idea to have a log of certain (known) components that work with it, for instance in my installation the engine is virtually standard ford Sierra 2L DOHC 8V as a learning tool, so I would want to be able to deal with a ford Idle Speed Valve with the coilpacks from a zetec, ideally without the additional wiring headaches of the EDIS module (3 wires this way rather than a handful more to get confused with), ford TPS and even a ford MAP sensor (im using the megasquirt map sensor in my build) and the standard injectors.

some good base maps to get started with would be a good idea as well!

Sonic Boom

iTrader: (11)

If you had all the spec that has been mentioned above for sub £600 i'd certainly buy one
What kind of time frame are you looking at for having an up and running version?
Rich

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Sub £1k for a decent ecu and then perhaps a dash add on unit and id be in. Need a new management system for when i build the carbon chassis as i need all new parts for IVA and registration purposes.

Also i dont want to be fucking around hacking up dashs to fit and fitting double sensors to run a different companies dash unit.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

except the GEMS dash units cost fucking £3k for a semi reasonable sized TFT unit!!!!

When you are talking that kind of money, you are better off buying an off the shelf hardened PC based car computer, and paying someone to set it up so the dash page of the M-TECH ecu comes on automatically on ignition start up etc.

And i could have much much bigger than a puny 5.7" TFT!!!

It just needs the software package to be intelligently written - most mapping software or ECU interface software has a basic "dash page" just make said page more customisable, or have a cut down version of the software just for the dash.

Hell look at most high and mid range cars now, full TFT dashes with digital dials the lot run through canbus from the ecu. Background just needs to be a bitmap which can make it look fancy as hell when in reality it isnt necessarily so fancy in implementation (nor does it need to be).

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

You being a programmer and me not, how possible is a customisable dash page on the PC software? perhaps 2 or 3 guage styles, guage sizes, drag and drop where you want on the "screen size" to build a custom dash display and maybe even being able to upload a custom background bitmap to make it look fancy???

And maybe extra pages that could be scrolled through by a simple push switch. on the steering wheel along with say an alarm silence/enter button.

Bit like a combined Dash unit, IECS monitor all in one.

Car computers and screens are off shelf technology so its mostly the software programming it to look slick.

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

If you are having a multi connection block for the i.o. cables have the sd card situated near that so you could put a small rubber gasket held in place by the connector, would make it secure and also user removable, rather than have to pull the Ecu out and access the card from another area...

Do like the thought of having a touch screen display htc screen or google tablet to display outputs that could be customised, could have multi displays in either bar form, figure form or even normal dash style gauges ...
The list of what you could display would be quite large though, as would the loom going into it lol ..

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

which is why the data would be sent from ecu to dash on a databus or some comms port rather than individual wires per signal. You would just have one complicatedish loom plugging into the ecu like you do now.

CrOwSoN15

Easily the most fascinating thread of the year

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

was thinking of the main loom ,sorry

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Only problem is can you make the tablet hardware, hardwired into a dash binacle and auto switch on and power up the right application all off the ignition key???

Also how reliable are they?? last thing you want is to be doing 70mph and the dash konks out or your bluetooth connection goes AWOL.

The modern decent spec car pcs all seem to be fairly ruggedised and use a known stable operating system and things like fast boot up to give a slick and reliable interface.

Also a touchscreen isnt usable when driving if its used as a proper dash unit behind the wheel so would need some kind of remote buttons or similar.

stevieturbo

One cost related "extra" could be...

Same ecu, but with a more basic, easy to use but still very functional software.

Then a more expensive unit with a far more flexible and featured software. I think for a really good spec ecu with a sensible number of inputs and outputs, £600 seems almost unrealistic given the rest of the market

Also...seeing as Motec asked this about their Mx00 range, then mysteriously moved it into their M1 section when it appeared, basically ignoring all the user requests...
Here was a wish list from Motec users for software features.

http://www.motec.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1705

Should also maybe have added dual onboard wideband controllers. Bosch most likely, as it means cheaper sensors.

That said multiple EGT channels would be nice too. But, from a cost cutting point of view, if your ecu could communicate with either Innovate or PLX data stream, then you could add some of their external units for extra inputs like their TC-4 for EGT's
But still for logging to occur within the ecu

I can see what you mean about SD card creating an opening in the casing. But one issue with downloading logs is comms speed. So being able to simply unplug the SD card and stick it in your computer is handy. Then just fire another SD card into the ecu

Sonic Boom

iTrader: (11)

Not sure if it's been mentioned earlier but also in car switchable maps.
Cheers Rich