stevieturbo

Having multiple main tables is less of a want, although fairly standard now anyway.

Of more use are adjustable features. Like launch rpm, boost settings, traction control settings. None of which is a map change per-say

How those in-car adjustments are achieved....again, going back to some sort of touchscreen display might be handy.

A simple Cal Switch is another route, but in some ways does limit the options unless it has lots of positions. As switch positions will be tied to other features too.
Although sometimes you can have far too much to mess about with from the drivers seat.

JonnyBravo

To be totally honest I couldn't comment on exactly how it applies it but I am sure if you have a read through some of the Syvecs forums it will be mentioned.

What I like and I know many others like about the Syvecs is the ongoing development with it, improving what is already a extremely powerful ecu just shows the interest they have in making it perfect for every application and tuner.

On paper what Matt is proposing sounds to be an amazing product, however in reality the development that goes into the best ecus on the market has taken years to perfect and if I was to be honest the fact the previous ecu was a megasquirt in a posh box doesn't make me hugely confident that this ecu is going to be as good as it sounds, I am ofcourse happy to be proven wrong and can only wish him good luck getting it sorted.

stevieturbo

Life Racing do make the ecu's for Syvecs, but they are a cheaper brand and are also developing in their own right.

Much the same as Link/Vipec. Same manufacturer, same origins of both hardware and software, but developing along two different paths, Vipec more quickly it seems.

Knock sensor inputs.

Injectors...something makes me want to say 16 injector drivers...ie 2 per cyl V8 application. It is of course serious overkill though, especially with the current range of high flow injectors available today.
12 coil drivers ? perhaps too many

Maybe both of the above are inexpensive anyway ?

COMMS...I think USB has to be in there, simply for tablets and other such devices. Bluetooth ? Maybe WiFi is a better option ?

Another possible feature...and might assist setting up multiple cars.

Crank and cam signals are always repetitive..obviously. Yet setting these up for cars where they havent been done by the ecu maker...always seems to be a ballache.

I really dont understand why the ecu cant simply learn the trigger ?
Suggestion.

Remove all plugs bar cylinder 1. Crank engine over a few times. The ecu sees and learns the crank/cam signals, it can detect cyl1 as it will be the only one on compression, so rpm will change.
Job done.

Obviously once running, timing will still need verified with a timing light. The user would still need to define sensor type, ie VR or Hall.

The Adaptronic e1280s is another very well spec'd unit and competitively priced.

https://adaptronic.com.au/products/e1280s.html

It's software claims to allow you to to almost anything with it's outputs, and offer a huge level of control and features.
I'd actually like to try this one myself....but I did try the software and just cant get my head around it

markk

iTrader: (2)

See Italics !!!! !

JonnyBravo

as Stevie has mentioned its a Life Racing based product.

All the best with it Matt, as I said on paper it sounds like a superb product that will suit a large amount of people.

Cheers

James

stevieturbo

Re GEMS, Ive only used one variation of their software....

It's well down my list of user friendly setups.

AEM/GEMS are similar units for the older stuff, and AEM's software is horrific.

markk

iTrader: (2)

Yep that would be GWV3 - everyone hated it I think lol

GWv4 is great to use tbh

Gems write the software interface for a lot of the lower end ECU producers,
AEM/Emerald/Omex (iirc) and more than the director was allowed to tell me about when I dealt with them for mine.

I have seen Pectels software for T6 etc - who would ever promote that as a nice interface I do not know. Really shocked me that did.

stevieturbo

Was 4 I was referring to !!!

It may look ok on screen, but that tab nonsense...seriously, WTF ! And that side window on the left, with thousands of menus and no description of what they do or why they are there...or why they repeat so many times.

It really is so slow and awkward. IMO any software that is so reliant on mouse control like that is...is very very bad.

markk

iTrader: (2)

Just goes to show, I find it really easy, but then I have been using it for a long time. and I love the tabs, I find it simple to group multiple parameters into one single click rather than trying to find data in lots of differing places then remember what screen it was on or where I found it, click tab - all my DBW info is there, all my ignition parameter in another, all my fuel in another, all start line and traction strategy in another.

I couldn't use the previous versions.

I also cannot get to grips with DTA's either, my mate is great with it though.
I suppose it is what you get used to perhaps? not only that, if it doesn't do something it is supposed to, or something you think of that it should do, you ring GEMS and they program it or correct it for you within a weeks or so.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Ahh cool if its robust enough and mounted as a dash unit all set up for that purpose then cool!!

Especially if you can do cool things like custom start up screen/logos, custom guages and/or switchable guage screens all in colour with a reasonable resolution.

Would definitely be interested in that.

stevieturbo

Re GEMS

Yes...and accidently delete the tab and there is no trace of it anymore ! But somewhere in the background it is still doing stuff. This happened a few times and left me baffled....those tables were there a minute ago...but not now ?

Hidden menu's or control options are just bad. I can see what they have tried to do, I just think it's done very badly.
And the parameters/options lists are very poor. Lots of lists of items, but with no proper identification as to what they actually do without referring to a pinout or other schedule.

The tables in the tabs...always seem to resize, so I end up needing to scroll to see the full table. I resize them all so I dont have to scroll...when I reboot the software, it's all screwed again.
I dont want to use a silly high screen resolution, it just makes everything smaller.

And you cant even simply use a cursor or keyboard to scroll through the tabs, you must use the mouse. I despise that. Might be fine on a home computer with proper mouse. On a laptop I think it is terrible.

Ive only used one of their ecu's, so obviously I'm not familiar with them. But that first time usage didnt inspire me to want to use another. Simply took too much effort for what should have been very basic tasks. Even calibrating the map sensor was just stupid.

I'm certainly not making any comparisons with DTA. DTA is pretty basic, and it's software could be improved. But it is an absolute doddle to work through and find stuff, and no menu or table disappears completely at a wrong click.

Motec Mx00 software is very good too, just a few complaints. But very easy in general, very well laid out, nothing hidden away. Most bits can be found via keyboard...some mouse is still required and sometimes annoying.

Syvecs, again very likeable, easy to work through ( especially via keyboard ). Of course lots of stuff will go over my head, but generally nothing that would annoy a user like the GEMS did with me for doing simple tasks.

Older Link stuff, again very easy, some mouse required, but not bad. I havent used the newer G4 stuff other than messing about offline..cant say I'd warm to their latest software much. Again hiding menus away.

botters

iTrader: (2)

is it too much to ask for an ecu supplied with a base map that then maps itself to perfection just by driving the car?.....ill get my coat

stevieturbo

Given many "tuners" struggle to do that.....an ecu that does it all on it's own would take a miracle.

And I find it very annoying and misleading that there are ecu makers and suppliers out there that are almost claiming theirs will do that.
People have a far far too high expectation of any auto tune features.

Yes they may work, but they also require manual input of some degree in order to make them work, and then they need monitored to make sure they arent making a fuck up of it !

botters

iTrader: (2)

lol yeah ive seen "autotune" advertised on ecu's and always thought yeah ok mate! would be nice tho, but it would pretty much put mappers out of business

markk

iTrader: (2)

Yes the removable functions were a problem, for people that were a bit loose with the happy clicking!! lol

just for you you can now 'lock all' to prevent your fat fingers and thumbs deleting things, but then you could always have re-loaded them had you deleted them.
Resizers have been fixed, that's what I love about it, if there is something you don't like they will change it simply as, unlike motec, who will charge you and then tell you it will take one of the software designers 12month to be in touch.

Its all good! the amount of revisions there has been is a testament to ongoing development if you ask me, and there have been a lot, not just for bugs/fixes but for additionality and 'user quirks' and the display can show what you like, and I mean anything, in design, layout, graph, charts, function lol sounds like im trying to sell one here.

I bought mine, and got involved with GEMS because no body could offer me an ecu to do everything I wanted for less that £1200, at the time DBW was the biggest cost to all ecu suppliers, yet GEMS came in at £1200 with it.

stevieturbo

When your mapping on the road in a car with very hard suspension...the mouse pad is a terrible thing to be forced to use. Things get clicked whether you like it or not. It isnt fat fingers or thumbs. Forcing mousepad use is just a shit way to do things.
Yes it works better if your in a comfortable environment like a dyno, but not the real world.

Yes you can reload....but why should I have to ? I'd rather a clean efficient tuning software than one you have to keep reloading to make functions viewable.
But yes the actual screen tables etc are good, well coloured and laid out. Just too big for a screen size and too easy to delete lol
And yes actual map tuning via keyboard is pretty good. But working through the software less so because the mouse must be used, so trying to move from one tab to another is awkward, especially when on the move.
A simple keyboard option here would be far better.


As Ive said, every brand has good points and bad, but ultimately the user interface is a hugely important item.
Mouse pad use is an issue with Motec too, as you can easily grab the windows and move them by accident. They too need a lock screen function, as the software just seems very sensitive via the mouse pad.

If all tuning was made easier via the keyboard, those things would never happen, and IMO tuning is far far faster.
The mouse will always be there to use when you want it...but limited keyboard access just makes any ecu more difficult.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Sounds a good compromise to me. mapping something like MarKK's rally car is a hell of a job with a mousepad and I agree with Stevie, with the best will in the world its neigh on impossible with a mousepad.

My OE systems Emulator allows sensible KB shortcuts such as..

- key = less
+ key = more
Alt + F8 = enable trace
Alt = F1 - F12 accesses different maps.

On the spark map, you must use Shift and + to increase spark, so as to ensure you don't accidentally add spark.

Perhaps more usefully, my emulator allows me to load 2 files at once.
This enables 2 main positive things:

A) I can see exactly what has been changed during mapping and by how much at any time.

B) I can revert the engine back to the original map at any time by pressing the escape key, then if I press again I am back to the modified map. (this works live while driving of course)

Both VERY useful features.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Not sure I follow you there Matt?
Why would you have both hands on the right?
I use two fingers of my right hand, one for up, one for down?

In your example you have also used keys that are next to each other?
Q & W, both on the left? And most users are right handed?



Nice in theory maybe - but how will you make that work in a live access scenario as the load and/or speed site will invariably have moved on?

stevieturbo

No, because road mapping always highlights various issues. Not just main fuel/spark tables. It can be idle, transients, boost control, knock control, lambda settings, sorting any speed/gear calibrations etc

There is no reason to lock anything if the software is done properly.

Again, I refer back back to the Simtek/Alcatek ecu's for Subarus, as it's one I'm familiar with. It's a budget ecu, but IMO the user interface is superb. It doesnt look all flashy, doesnt have lots of stupid windows or colours, but it is very easy to use either static or on the move.
Syvecs is very similar, although obviously more options and menus because it is a more featured ecu.

I would look to those two as a benchmark for good functional tuning software ( out of systems I have used )

Standard tuning changes as per the above or Motec are a simple as

+/- to change a cell. Motec uses PgUp and PgDown for the same effect. ( or use one for small increments or another for large )

Simple Shift + cursors to highlight a block of cells and either +/- them or perform a maths function ( M to open a menu ). That could be anything from +, -, x, / or interpolate vertically or horizontally.

A cell trace lock. Again a great feature for live tuning. The cursor follows load at all times, you just +/- to change values as you drive.
Ghost trace. Again, that locked cell trace simply highlights via colour the cells you just passed through. On fast cars this speeds up tuning and fine tuning boost control. As you can see clearly exactly what sites you just hit.

In addition, if knock detection is present...I'd like a feature that marks a cell where potential knock was detected. Just change the cell red for example. It may be real or false...but again it easily warns the user there may be an issue in that area ( Havent seen this feature on any ecu )

All the above is just to make live tuning faster. Yes you can revert to logs and other stuff, but that's slower for live tuning.

As mentioned before, a lambda log and potential correction table is another great feature, and would be similar to that ghost trace. Again this table would just mirror your fuel load table. You can then decided if the numbers made sense and apply automated corrections, or jut correct the main map yourself and clear the logged values for another pull.
My own DTA ecu does this and is a handy feature. The PFC Datalogit did something along those lines too.

And of course then, big screen warnings for stuff like coolant temperature or other user defined items. Sometimes when concentrating elsewhere, it's easy to miss water temp rising a little.

stevieturbo

I'd agree. I'm right handed, I prefer to use my right hand for making the changes. Left side of the keyboard sounds very awkward.

+/- is simple and very clear as to what the buttons mean.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Ah, I see what you mean but surely, live trace takes care of that?
You don't want to be trying to follow a moving engine live map with a set of bloody cursor keys! The ecu should allow adjustments to the cell currently in operation and that cell be highlighted clearly.

If anyone's never tried this, you can get an idea by looking at this video as you can "just" see the emulator and laptop hooked up and see how the trace moves around. On my system, pressing the =/- keys adjusts the one thats red, the one in actual use right then. (The only one your interested in)


You will see how fast a trace moves during throttle movement after the run when James is revving the engine.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Those features would be awesome and overshadow pretty much any other feature mentioned for me. It could easily (easily for me to say...lol) be enhanced via set of user configurable alarms so that if say:

TPS = >70%
Boost = > 1.5bar
AFR = < 11.5:1
Then that fuel cell flashes after you have driven through it.

Imagine that!?!

stevieturbo

I think too many alarms would make it more awkward.

ie, a slight misfire could cause an apparent lean condition but isnt an actual problem as such so you wouldnt want an alarm. And lets face it...if you're in the upper rpm range, your foot will be on the floor and boost will be high anyway.

As for the cursors and following cells....Motec has no trace/lock option, so you end up doing this. It is annoying, but Ive never had issues hitting cursors by mistake. But they do use PgUp/PgDown for adjustments, so they are usually the rightmost on the keyboard.

IMO the left should only be for accessing extra functions. Shift, CTRL, TAB etc or less frequently used options.

Or a wild shot here...have some of the keyboard functions user definable. Not all as it would get too awkward, but just some.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Initially yes, but when your almost there, or calibrating for a change of some form, like bigger compressor or just more boost, would be nice to ENABLE this feature and then just drive it around for a bit and see what cells are highlighted. I don't mean an audible alarm, I mean for example...

excessively lean cells coloured red
excessively rich cells coloured black

it would give you an instant idea of just how far out each load site is without having to do too much.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

While I remember -
For gods sake have a linearise function that can do left to right, up and down and corner to corner.

It INFURIATES me when ECU software cant do this simple and very necessary task, in fact, I turn down mapping of ECU's from scratch on a fresh install when the software cant do this, or price it so high the jobs never going to get done.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

My pet hate to the main reason why i wont use after market ecus as much as i can get away with these days ! the cossie will never come off l8 , function i like to see is egt management I.E egt-boost or egt-boost-afr-igni

Beetlejuice

All this talk of + and - keys.. Why not have a potbox as well? The GEMS potboxes speed things up tremendously.

markk

iTrader: (2)

Was just going to mention that, though I have not used it yet, DTA have a similar device.

stevieturbo

I disagree. Perhaps again in a dyno environment the pot box is helpful. But a good functional keyboard is equally as good.

DTA's live tuning via keyboard is very poor, so a dyno box can help a little.. But ultimately even their pot box requires keyboard input to finalise any changes. So for actual live tuning it really isnt that useful. It's aimed purely for static load cell tuning.

Beetlejuice

Can't comment on the DTA, but with the GEMS potbox - turn the dial to adjust, click the dial to confirm - no keyboard input required

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

i like the dta interface sort of alright with omex but emerald dear god

Beetlejuice

You can use GWv4 with Omex and AEM Jay

stu21t

This is a cool thread, even though I only understand 10% of what's being said lol.

On the sd card front could you not run a fly lead out from the ecu and have the memory card on that? You could have it short and glue it the top of the case or make it long and then the installer can fit it somewhere accessible. That way you won't have anymore openings in the ecu case as the lead can just come out with the loom?


And off topic but a question for stu, in the video at the top of the page the 3dr has the bonnet open for its runs, was this just for the video? As I thought it was best to close the bonnet so you get real world airflow over components like rad, cooler, air filter.....

stevieturbo

The DTA only makes a temporary change to the table when you hit the pot box enter/store button, and it records the change. Which makes sense for steady state dyno tuning as you'd just do this and move onto the next cell.
But the changes arent actually permanently applied to the map until you confirm via keyboard. But you wouldnt really need to do that until the end on a dyno anyway.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Agreed, the MS implementation of this is great for example so one Matt will be familiar with.

Saves SO much time when you dont have to manually interpolate!

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Really !! ill have a look at that thanks

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I disagree, hardware is pennies now compared to 10 years ago when most "current" ecus were designed or what they are based on was, so a new system designed from the groundup with modern chips should be SO much cheaper to make than stuff like an old omex using expensive slow chips designed in the 90s etc.

I think Matt is right to want to completely turn ECU pricing on its head and show everything on the market currently up for being out of date technology that the user is paying over the odds for TBH.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Agreed, Ive yet to see any autotune setup that I would trust to totally map an engine, they have their uses for getting into a decent ballpark but they never work properly, engines are quite complicated things and I think having a person who knows what they are doing at the controls is better than an algorythm making assumptions.
Especially for timing when other noises like valvetrain etc can trigger the sensor anyway.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Great feedback from Stevie, I stayed out of the thread for a while as a lot of the stuff that matt mentioned initially like the GPC tables etc is things Id already discussed with him months (poss even years now I lose track of time!) ago when this project was much more in its infancy.

One thing I dont think I have seen mentioned in this thread is expandable inputs, things like Autronic SM4 for example are frustrating as the GPC tables in that will allow you to do pretty much anything you could ever want to do with an aftermarket ECU, but only up to the point you run out of the very limited number of inputs, so a simple and affordable way to expand to add more inputs would be good.
Lets have 0-255 analog and 0-255 digital inputs in the code and then map them to pins on the ecu wherever we want including into an expansion module that contains all the extra ones if required but the basic ecu just come with a sensible number as per matt's hardware list for example?

stevieturbo

The expansion could be via CAN or serial data stream like I said. Lots of people already use innovate stuff for data, so it would make sense to use that format. Easy integration.