Rolling Roads - Tell us your stories...
25-07-2012, 06:54 AM
#122
Testing the future
25-07-2012, 07:00 AM
#123
Testing the future
Stu, good luck with new side to your business 
Perhaps you've seen the pictures of the fan setup that I have posted in the past in the climatic wind tunnel where I used to work testing automotive air conditioning? That was driven by a 150kW motor and only intended to generate enough wind for 70mph tests at only up to 200 bhp loads. That dyno cell did not exchange the air for fresh, but recirculated it through a massive heat exchanger to maintain a temperature anywhere between 10 and 50 deg.C. An old facility by modern standards and no longer up to the demands of OE testing.
Being able to harness the power of the car on test and generate back some electricity would be ideal. I'd get my own nuclear reactor on site first, otherwise electricity is going to be very expensive
BTW, what's the difference between fission and fusion? You might catch something when you go fission
Perhaps you've seen the pictures of the fan setup that I have posted in the past in the climatic wind tunnel where I used to work testing automotive air conditioning? That was driven by a 150kW motor and only intended to generate enough wind for 70mph tests at only up to 200 bhp loads. That dyno cell did not exchange the air for fresh, but recirculated it through a massive heat exchanger to maintain a temperature anywhere between 10 and 50 deg.C. An old facility by modern standards and no longer up to the demands of OE testing.
Being able to harness the power of the car on test and generate back some electricity would be ideal. I'd get my own nuclear reactor on site first, otherwise electricity is going to be very expensive
BTW, what's the difference between fission and fusion? You might catch something when you go fission
25-07-2012, 07:50 AM
#124
some very short sighted veiws here !! you cant blame a dyno for a tight fisted fuckin idiot that doesnt set the dyno up right or builds the cell properly ! like my post earlier its not always the equipment its mostly the organic dick that operates it ! Ibet there's just as much fucked up live mapped cars if not more than dyno/road tuned cars !!
When they say "so and so dyno is shit" they are talking about the entire instalation including the fans, the straps, etc. Thats the whole problem, people buy an all singing and dancing set of rollers that if installed correctly would be great, but then they dont do that so they end up next to useless for a big power car.
25-07-2012, 07:55 AM
#125
They arent an independant examining body ran for the good of the consumer, they are an entertainment show trying to be funny and dramatic and they clearly have little interest in being accurate.
Every car review they do has to be dramatic in some way.
25-07-2012, 08:52 AM
#126
If you're looking for a Dyno Stu, whilst Ive never used them, Mainline has many interfaces for OBD and aftermarket tuning software to assist with tuning. From what I understand, it is the best dyno out there with regards to tuning and diagnostics due to how it interfaces with various ecu's etc. Nothing else comes close.
Been researching them non stop for nearly 4 months now, inc mustand, mainline, DD, Maha and Superflow and have finally settled on and paid for the new 2400bhp AWD, DD Dynotech.
The mainline is indeed good, very good, but a lot of its ECU interfacing software only works with Australian stuff and the new Dynotech works with the same systems.
Also you need to buy quite a lot of hardwired stuff I really don't want as I am building my own computer control system that will port the software around different screens in teh cell and waiting area, video the runs, upload graphs to the server, log OBD functions at the same time as the runs via the Snap On Verdict and even record the runs to DVD for customers to buy if they wish. Thus the new dynotech modular system suits me far far better as I can improve on the functionality myself and control the lot from a wireless keyboard within the car. Of course in the UK its also a recognized and trusted brand, which is important for marketing purposes.
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 25-07-2012 at 08:57 AM.
25-07-2012, 08:53 AM
#127
Thanks Nick, appreciate it.
It rings a bell, lets see it again and hear more about it mate. 
Perhaps you've seen the pictures of the fan setup that I have posted in the past in the climatic wind tunnel where I used to work testing automotive air conditioning?
25-07-2012, 09:01 AM
#128
The Dynotech are properly good value, most of the functionality of the full on DD systems, at a hell of a lot cheaper cost and the important bits like the retarder are absolutely identical.
For anything but a money no object install they do seem to be the dyno of choice at the moment, although the stuff Mike Gurney is doing looks interesting too.
For anything but a money no object install they do seem to be the dyno of choice at the moment, although the stuff Mike Gurney is doing looks interesting too.
25-07-2012, 09:23 AM
#129
My favourite feature perhaps is its ability to tell you precisely how far fuel / boost etc is out from target in percentage, allowing you to quickly dial in changes to the map in percentage and the next run be virtually spot on.
The alarms for any logging channel are very useful too, knock for example can now have an alarm assigned to it, or perhaps boost. Also the new OBD2 interface will reliably input the boost and rpm into the dyno which is very useful for us indeed as we do a hell of a lot of diesels which are damn hard to get such signals from.
It all runs incredibly well on a custom built PC, meaning the old hardware limitations of the DS450 are totally removed from it and future upgrades are a lot cheaper. IE: The old engine sensor interface was around Ł2000 for the DS450, for the new Dynotech system it is faster and only Ł800 as it can all now run via USB instead of needing a hardware interface.
The manual load mode is also on a nice simple interface on the screen meaning we can get the ramp rate perfect in seconds for any type of engine install... it was awkward on every other system I looked at.
25-07-2012, 10:33 AM
#134
Regular Contributor
25-07-2012, 11:04 AM
#135
The important parts to me, are actually a lot better. The OBD2 logging system is hugely faster and can finally log all of the datastream without having to kick the box now and again to get it to work... slowly. Also, I believe the software is quite a lot different to the DS450 now with regards some of the mapping aids and comparison figures.
My favourite feature perhaps is its ability to tell you precisely how far fuel / boost etc is out from target in percentage, allowing you to quickly dial in changes to the map in percentage and the next run be virtually spot on.
The alarms for any logging channel are very useful too, knock for example can now have an alarm assigned to it, or perhaps boost. Also the new OBD2 interface will reliably input the boost and rpm into the dyno which is very useful for us indeed as we do a hell of a lot of diesels which are damn hard to get such signals from.
It all runs incredibly well on a custom built PC, meaning the old hardware limitations of the DS450 are totally removed from it and future upgrades are a lot cheaper. IE: The old engine sensor interface was around Ł2000 for the DS450, for the new Dynotech system it is faster and only Ł800 as it can all now run via USB instead of needing a hardware interface.
The manual load mode is also on a nice simple interface on the screen meaning we can get the ramp rate perfect in seconds for any type of engine install... it was awkward on every other system I looked at.
My favourite feature perhaps is its ability to tell you precisely how far fuel / boost etc is out from target in percentage, allowing you to quickly dial in changes to the map in percentage and the next run be virtually spot on.
The alarms for any logging channel are very useful too, knock for example can now have an alarm assigned to it, or perhaps boost. Also the new OBD2 interface will reliably input the boost and rpm into the dyno which is very useful for us indeed as we do a hell of a lot of diesels which are damn hard to get such signals from.
It all runs incredibly well on a custom built PC, meaning the old hardware limitations of the DS450 are totally removed from it and future upgrades are a lot cheaper. IE: The old engine sensor interface was around Ł2000 for the DS450, for the new Dynotech system it is faster and only Ł800 as it can all now run via USB instead of needing a hardware interface.
The manual load mode is also on a nice simple interface on the screen meaning we can get the ramp rate perfect in seconds for any type of engine install... it was awkward on every other system I looked at.
Thats interesting about the ODB stuff being a step forward, not a side of it I had looked into at all as not something I get involved with, but for what you guys do its obviously massively important.
I do pretty accurate percentages too quickly in my head to care if the system does it or not for my personal use, but for anyone who isnt a maths geek that sounds like a massive advantage too.
Last edited by Chip; 25-07-2012 at 11:05 AM.
25-07-2012, 11:13 AM
#136
I think that's what the mainline does.
Via OBD it can reference map, rpm, timing, fuel pw etc etc etc. It can compare these to AFR's and knock from a pull and pretty much automatically tell you the changes that need made via the relevant tuning software.
Not sure how many systems it can interface with, but I know Ecutek was mentioned.
Just another huge step forward from basic logging. Having access to OBD data as well, can be a huge help with diagnosing faults on normal mundane cars too when on rollers.
IMO the more complex cars get, nevermind tuning and power runs, that is an area dyno's could become very important in the future.
Via OBD it can reference map, rpm, timing, fuel pw etc etc etc. It can compare these to AFR's and knock from a pull and pretty much automatically tell you the changes that need made via the relevant tuning software.
Not sure how many systems it can interface with, but I know Ecutek was mentioned.
Just another huge step forward from basic logging. Having access to OBD data as well, can be a huge help with diagnosing faults on normal mundane cars too when on rollers.
IMO the more complex cars get, nevermind tuning and power runs, that is an area dyno's could become very important in the future.
25-07-2012, 05:47 PM
#137
Testing the future
couple of previous threads:
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...nsumption.html
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...y-wires-2.html
i got the details wrong above, it's been while since i was made redundant from there and it was dismantled and sold to a spanish company
220kW motor
centrifugal blower
nozzle
the heat exchanger was probably 5m wide by 4m high.
that was small compared to the facility i worked in in germany which was build in 2000 (so old by now) that had a huge chiller system that could also go down to -40 deg.C for testing of HVAC systems and it also had full fuel consumption and emissions measuring equipment to do the EC drive cycle stuff.
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...nsumption.html
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...y-wires-2.html
i got the details wrong above, it's been while since i was made redundant from there and it was dismantled and sold to a spanish company
220kW motor
centrifugal blower
nozzle
the heat exchanger was probably 5m wide by 4m high.
that was small compared to the facility i worked in in germany which was build in 2000 (so old by now) that had a huge chiller system that could also go down to -40 deg.C for testing of HVAC systems and it also had full fuel consumption and emissions measuring equipment to do the EC drive cycle stuff.
26-07-2012, 06:27 AM
#141
Testing the future
the one above was purpose built in the early 80's and was still capable of testing most OE A/C systems to the manufacturers specs (generally 43 deg. C, 40 % Relative Humidity, 1kW / square metre solar load and 70 mph wind.
As Stu says, it's easy enough to put a fan in front of a vehicle to blow air onto it's radiator, but you need the airflow over the whole vehicle to get anywhere near simulating road conditions and you'll never get that with the piddly blowers that are commonly used in a rolling road 'cell' (i use the term loosely as they're normally just part of a workshop with an open door)
As Stu says, it's easy enough to put a fan in front of a vehicle to blow air onto it's radiator, but you need the airflow over the whole vehicle to get anywhere near simulating road conditions and you'll never get that with the piddly blowers that are commonly used in a rolling road 'cell' (i use the term loosely as they're normally just part of a workshop with an open door)
26-07-2012, 07:53 AM
#144
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Ill tell you a honest story about mosleys when i had my first turbo in 1999 i wanted rolling road session so took too moslys car was pretty standard i picked it up it was running 143bhp he said he typed the figures in as he had analogue gauges on way home car was running 2psi of boost and timing retarded too hell but amazing it made 143 bhp i dont think so . I ve set all my cars with det cans fuel ratio gauge live myself after that dave in interpro used too do power runs and any addisional setting and help me with some set ups i had good results after the moslys day i should thank him cos if he had nt set my car up so bad id never of started tuning
26-07-2012, 08:59 AM
#145
Yeah, looked at them all, plus some stuff most have never heard of. To be honest, they are all quite similar, but the main 2 things that swung me to DD was the new system that allows me to run it from my own PC instead of their hardware, the high power tie down system and the physical size, as they are more compact than most and I am limited for space due to my requirements for a seperate fan room / feed system.
Thats interesting about the ODB stuff being a step forward, not a side of it I had looked into at all as not something I get involved with, but for what you guys do its obviously massively important.
I do pretty accurate percentages too quickly in my head to care if the system does it or not for my personal use, but for anyone who isnt a maths geek that sounds like a massive advantage too.
I do pretty accurate percentages too quickly in my head to care if the system does it or not for my personal use, but for anyone who isnt a maths geek that sounds like a massive advantage too.
Its the normal "mundane" cars that are hard to fix mate. Even a modern Nissan Juke Diesel has a management system that makes something like an Evo or Bmw M3 look like something from the dark ages. The OBD 2 interface, allied to the Snap On Verdict is going to be invaluable for finding load or speed related problems.
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 26-07-2012 at 09:07 AM.
26-07-2012, 09:04 AM
#146
I know all too well about modern cars and problems. They are a total nightmare. That's why I think rolling roads and their software will have to play a big part in diagnostics in the future.
Especially as emissions etc get tighter and tighter. Some diagnostics may have to be done in a controlled environment.
Especially as emissions etc get tighter and tighter. Some diagnostics may have to be done in a controlled environment.
26-07-2012, 09:05 AM
#147
Love that Fan Nick, if only I could afford a facility like that.
I am purposely keeping my cell size down to maximise airflow through it, but even now I calculate a minimum of 20'000 CFM at 50mph is required to keep temperatures sensible and repeatable, and in an ideal world, 40'000.
The problem is not just the cfm of course, but the ability to move it through obstructions, which means the main fan isnt going to cut it unless its centrifugal as it has a lot of penetration to achieve.
However, I think that a pair of axials either side would deal with cooling of the chassis / tyres / retarders etc pretty well.. well, I hope so, as they are MUCH cheaper. LOL
As Stu says, it's easy enough to put a fan in front of a vehicle to blow air onto it's radiator, but you need the airflow over the whole vehicle to get anywhere near simulating road conditions and you'll never get that with the piddly blowers that are commonly used in a rolling road 'cell' (i use the term loosely as they're normally just part of a workshop with an open door)
The problem is not just the cfm of course, but the ability to move it through obstructions, which means the main fan isnt going to cut it unless its centrifugal as it has a lot of penetration to achieve.
However, I think that a pair of axials either side would deal with cooling of the chassis / tyres / retarders etc pretty well.. well, I hope so, as they are MUCH cheaper. LOL
26-07-2012, 12:06 PM
#148
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Ooooooooooooooo I likey a lot stu!!!! New engine freshen up on my saph soon with turbo change to trusty t4 new map required and drive out bhp figure from you guys would be so much of a benefit when spending the money's on a live map will make grins bigger all round!!!! Cant wait to get it booked in with ya!!
26-07-2012, 06:25 PM
#149
PassionFord Post Troll
26-07-2012, 06:47 PM
#151
Strapping a car to theirs would also carry more risks due to the large single rollers. More risk of a car coming off them, which with conventional 2 roller per tyre setups is almost impossible.
Less of an issue on a 2wd car probably, but definitely an issue with a 4wd setup.
26-07-2012, 09:59 PM
#154
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great cooling is ace but if you have to charge Ł300 per hour to run and upkeep it it wont work in every day world
id love more fans for rear and a bigger front one but people moan at mapping costs now
id love more fans for rear and a bigger front one but people moan at mapping costs now
26-07-2012, 10:58 PM
#155
You can see in the pics where the hydraulic hoses from the hub units link up to the cooling fan etc
http://rototest.com/dynamometer/dyno.php?DN=2
http://rototest.com/dynamometer/dyno...N=18&Visitor=4
Although their setup costs about double the next hub based system.....which costs about double a roller bases system lol
http://rototest.com/dynamometer/dyno.php?DN=2
http://rototest.com/dynamometer/dyno...N=18&Visitor=4
Although their setup costs about double the next hub based system.....which costs about double a roller bases system lol
Last edited by stevieturbo; 26-07-2012 at 11:00 PM.
27-07-2012, 05:29 AM
#156
Testing the future
isn't it a matter of educating the customer as to why they need to spend that much to have a proper job done by someone who understands what it takes to do it properly and safely (the whole point of Stu starting this thread it seems)?
27-07-2012, 09:23 AM
#157
if front wheel drive cars will lift the front of the car, it would stand to reason you've only got to strap down the front end to keep the suspension from lifting yes?
with rwd car the back end squats so wouldn't it be better to have some blocks to stop them bottoming out?
or would this just lift the rear wheels into the suspension again?
and why, if that was the case, could you not run a rwd car in reverse?
do you HAVE to run them up in a 1:1 gear ratio?
etc?
genuine questions
with rwd car the back end squats so wouldn't it be better to have some blocks to stop them bottoming out?
or would this just lift the rear wheels into the suspension again?
and why, if that was the case, could you not run a rwd car in reverse?
do you HAVE to run them up in a 1:1 gear ratio?
etc?
genuine questions
27-07-2012, 10:53 AM
#158
I would look at the TAT equipment, does require much more building work to install.
http://www.tat-rd.com/dyno_htm_e/dyno_start.htm
Steve
http://www.tat-rd.com/dyno_htm_e/dyno_start.htm
Steve
27-07-2012, 05:05 PM
#159
Testing the future
if front wheel drive cars will lift the front of the car, it would stand to reason you've only got to strap down the front end to keep the suspension from lifting yes?
with rwd car the back end squats so wouldn't it be better to have some blocks to stop them bottoming out?
or would this just lift the rear wheels into the suspension again?
and why, if that was the case, could you not run a rwd car in reverse?
do you HAVE to run them up in a 1:1 gear ratio?
etc?
genuine questions
with rwd car the back end squats so wouldn't it be better to have some blocks to stop them bottoming out?
or would this just lift the rear wheels into the suspension again?
and why, if that was the case, could you not run a rwd car in reverse?
do you HAVE to run them up in a 1:1 gear ratio?
etc?
genuine questions
27-07-2012, 05:33 PM
#160
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Good luck with this Stu, sounds like a brilliant plan!
Moving back to Blackpool so will have to pop by if anyone is having a dyno run so I can be nosey.
Moving back to Blackpool so will have to pop by if anyone is having a dyno run so I can be nosey.