vtec hype???
07-12-2011, 11:18 AM
#121
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Danw, your appraisal seems to be of N/A versus turbo (or diesel turbo) rather than vtec versus non vtec. Everything you said applies equally to all non vtec N/A engines as well, just in most cases they dont even have the go when you do rev them either!
Upto 6K there is basically naff all between a vtec and non vtec engine, then from 6K onwards the vtec wins.
Its weird that cause the engine gets massively better at high rpm it makes people not like it at low rpm, where as without that power at high rpm no one seems to mind their cars being gutless low down (ie a normal 2.0 zetec etc)
We all agree that if you want a big surge of midrange torque you need a turbo, or a lot more capacity, there is simply no way to have an N/A engine of small capacity that pulls well at low rpm, the laws of physics totally prevent it.
Upto 6K there is basically naff all between a vtec and non vtec engine, then from 6K onwards the vtec wins.
Its weird that cause the engine gets massively better at high rpm it makes people not like it at low rpm, where as without that power at high rpm no one seems to mind their cars being gutless low down (ie a normal 2.0 zetec etc)
We all agree that if you want a big surge of midrange torque you need a turbo, or a lot more capacity, there is simply no way to have an N/A engine of small capacity that pulls well at low rpm, the laws of physics totally prevent it.
Since when? 
I think you've read the statement (myth?) that Honda have never had a warranty claim on a VTEC system. It doesn't refer to the engine, just the VTEC bit! Honda engines fail like any other manufacturers engines do... well, maybe a little less commonly that some, but they're not immune to failures.
I think you've read the statement (myth?) that Honda have never had a warranty claim on a VTEC system. It doesn't refer to the engine, just the VTEC bit! Honda engines fail like any other manufacturers engines do... well, maybe a little less commonly that some, but they're not immune to failures.
My appraisal was of the VTEC engines, and the driving characteristics of them in comparison to their competitors. I didn't know the 'rules' of the discussion was that you weren't allowed mention forced induction cars. 
I don't like VTEC engines, and I was throwing my four-penneth into a conversation about them, and I stand by my comments.
Ultimately I'd much rather have an N/A where there was a more even spread of power - I've not looked at the dyno graphs but I'd wager that a Clio 182 would make more power at 2K, 3K and 4K than a Civic Type R - or at least it has driving characteristics that I prefer over the Type R.
I don't like VTEC engines, and I was throwing my four-penneth into a conversation about them, and I stand by my comments.
Ultimately I'd much rather have an N/A where there was a more even spread of power - I've not looked at the dyno graphs but I'd wager that a Clio 182 would make more power at 2K, 3K and 4K than a Civic Type R - or at least it has driving characteristics that I prefer over the Type R.
Been in an S2000, Prelude 2.2 vtec, integra type R & a civic type R... Not really anything to write home about i'm afraid, the S2000 was the biggest dissapointment, really peaky and flat delivery, even thrashing it's cunt off at 9500rpm it felt Sloooooooooooooow 
..Seemed to spend it's life in 2nd and 3rd gear, and I thought the gearing was far too tall for it's power, top of 3rd gear is close to 120Mph IIRC?! I know they are great really, but I just don't like the way they drive, and the HUGE over-hype of Vtec, it really just makes a slightly higher noise with no real forward motion
..Seemed to spend it's life in 2nd and 3rd gear, and I thought the gearing was far too tall for it's power, top of 3rd gear is close to 120Mph IIRC?! I know they are great really, but I just don't like the way they drive, and the HUGE over-hype of Vtec, it really just makes a slightly higher noise with no real forward motion Heres a powergraph of a 1.6 turbo Honda we built. (standard engine) The power delivery is still peaky, but torque is somewhat improved.
07-12-2011, 11:40 AM
#123
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Also to all the haters, at which point does the car come on vtec?
07-12-2011, 11:44 AM
#124
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07-12-2011, 11:50 AM
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07-12-2011, 12:47 PM
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However there isn't really anything not to like about the engines. If you don't want them to feel peaky just don't rev them past 6, then it'll be like any other 2 litre/1.6 whatever.
07-12-2011, 01:54 PM
#128
07-12-2011, 02:43 PM
#130
Thats a 1.6, you can expect 200lbft 500-1000 rpm's earlier on the b18, we also map them to "remove" some low down torque off vtec to prolong engine life. (this isn't too bad on the b18c4) as the pistons are somewhat stronger in the ringland area.
Also to all the haters, at which point does the car come on vtec?
Also to all the haters, at which point does the car come on vtec?
Im thinking of using a GT3071 on it TBH, even though its way bigger than I need, I just really like the way those turbos deliver their power, and it looks like the evo setup you use would have no chance of fitting in my bay, unless you can rotate it so the inlet doesnt poke as far towards my headlight?
Will talk to you about it once the engine is in though as its no doubt you I'll be coming to for the manifold and downpipe anyway, and until its in there I really am only guessing!
07-12-2011, 03:46 PM
#131
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This thread, along with some videos on youtube have got me thinking
B18/k20 mk2 fiesta
?.
I could get used to the power delivery if it meant I got that noise.
B18/k20 mk2 fiesta
?.I could get used to the power delivery if it meant I got that noise.
07-12-2011, 03:54 PM
#132
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If I can have 200lbft from 4k-8500, i'll be over the moon, but TBH from 5500 to 8000 would still be enough to keep it on the boil, so doesnt matter if its not quite as good as it could be.
Im thinking of using a GT3071 on it TBH, even though its way bigger than I need, I just really like the way those turbos deliver their power, and it looks like the evo setup you use would have no chance of fitting in my bay, unless you can rotate it so the inlet doesnt poke as far towards my headlight?
Will talk to you about it once the engine is in though as its no doubt you I'll be coming to for the manifold and downpipe anyway, and until its in there I really am only guessing!
Im thinking of using a GT3071 on it TBH, even though its way bigger than I need, I just really like the way those turbos deliver their power, and it looks like the evo setup you use would have no chance of fitting in my bay, unless you can rotate it so the inlet doesnt poke as far towards my headlight?
Will talk to you about it once the engine is in though as its no doubt you I'll be coming to for the manifold and downpipe anyway, and until its in there I really am only guessing!
With the Td05 been twin scroll its a bit on the large side as you say. Of course, we haven't tried to keep the kit as compact as it could be because there isn't a reason to. Yours would no doubt be a custom kit so I don't suppose it'd matter really. The main reason the inlet is twisted is actually to clear the Aircon pump should customers wish to retain it.
07-12-2011, 03:57 PM
#133
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VTEC = Brilliant technology / ultra reliable.
Everyone keeps saying VTECS have no torque, i'm not sure they actually know what torque is or how the technology works
Lots of mis information picked up from backstreet pubs being qouted about on car forums
STOP listening to everything clarkson says and do some research!
Everyone keeps saying VTECS have no torque, i'm not sure they actually know what torque is or how the technology works
Lots of mis information picked up from backstreet pubs being qouted about on car forums
STOP listening to everything clarkson says and do some research!
Last edited by Guile1; 07-12-2011 at 03:58 PM.
07-12-2011, 04:15 PM
#135
The Evo setup is the most responsive we've used to date. Something slightly cheaper with better responce is a custom Precision turbo we had done (just a jornal bearing) it would do around 480hp max but is a very nice compact turbo.
With the Td05 been twin scroll its a bit on the large side as you say. Of course, we haven't tried to keep the kit as compact as it could be because there isn't a reason to. Yours would no doubt be a custom kit so I don't suppose it'd matter really. The main reason the inlet is twisted is actually to clear the Aircon pump should customers wish to retain it.
With the Td05 been twin scroll its a bit on the large side as you say. Of course, we haven't tried to keep the kit as compact as it could be because there isn't a reason to. Yours would no doubt be a custom kit so I don't suppose it'd matter really. The main reason the inlet is twisted is actually to clear the Aircon pump should customers wish to retain it.
07-12-2011, 04:44 PM
#136
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Are you going to purchase a hand bag & makeup to go with this girly Spec Chip. I thought i saw traces of eye liner at Middlesex club night
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07-12-2011, 05:00 PM
#137
i had a 5th gen prelude 2.2 vtec with cams, it really wasnt for me not that it was a bad car or bad engine it was just the mirror opposite to most of the performance cars i have had where by it felt like you had to drive it like to stole it to really get the best out of it and that didn't appeal to me.
07-12-2011, 05:09 PM
#138
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I appreciate the engineering behind them adn i'm not going to say they are shite, but i just don't like them, to me they are all fart and no shite
.Drove a couple of them in the past and on a local private road
with a slight incline, whilst climbing said inclide, i did find them to start to struggle a bit. Whereas the RS 2000 i had at the time (150bhp and 150lb/ft and only revs to 6600ish) wasn't effected to anywhere near the same degree by the same section of 'track' .From my experience i'd put some of it down to how they are geared - too long IMO, but the majority to how the power is delivered.
I'd like to drive one with a higher final drive to see if that livens them up.
07-12-2011, 05:15 PM
#139
Not going to be doing top speed runs, it will be geared to hit a speed of 140mph on the back straight at bedford, and even if I had a much longer straight that means it will be limited to just under 150mph, I want a really useable trackday car and for fwd 200lbft all through the rev range is a great place to be
Last edited by Chip; 07-12-2011 at 05:17 PM.
07-12-2011, 05:24 PM
#140
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They are good for tuning and stuff, but crap for rallying, to noisey (bad for PR), and a lack of torque (there was a vid somewhere of a mk2 doing a rally at the epynt ranges and at nearly every hill they got to (they ain't that big there by the way) and the driver was constantly having to change down a gear cause it just couldn't pull up hills, for street and tuning, get a vtec, for rallying, stick to XE or duratecs
07-12-2011, 05:31 PM
#142
LOADS of people full of shit about them im sure, but the RS Turbo is just as bad, I used to reguarly trounce "200bhp" Rs turbos back 10 years ago when I had a bog standard XE in a nova.
No make has a monopoly on dickhead owners.
07-12-2011, 05:32 PM
#143
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Well said Jimbo
07-12-2011, 05:35 PM
#144
Have a giggle now then, it was!
Td04 at a 10.9 psi on a forged b18 in a civic coupe
Nothing in it to 130,
How it went, I had gearbox issues so up to fifth gear we were both a bit unsure of who was going, but in fifth he pulled out and both kept planted and I went long way round and he was most deffinately not coming by, might have been unto about 140 in the end actually I was running 23psi realistically 280 to be fair.
Td04 at a 10.9 psi on a forged b18 in a civic coupe
Nothing in it to 130,
How it went, I had gearbox issues so up to fifth gear we were both a bit unsure of who was going, but in fifth he pulled out and both kept planted and I went long way round and he was most deffinately not coming by, might have been unto about 140 in the end actually I was running 23psi realistically 280 to be fair.
07-12-2011, 05:44 PM
#145
Have a giggle now then, it was!
Td04 at a 10.9 psi on a forged b18 in a civic coupe
Nothing in it to 130,
How it went, I had gearbox issues so up to fifth gear we were both a bit unsure of who was going, but in fifth he pulled out and both kept planted and I went long way round and he was most deffinately not coming by, might have been unto about 140 in the end actually I was running 23psi realistically 280 to be fair.
Td04 at a 10.9 psi on a forged b18 in a civic coupe
Nothing in it to 130,
How it went, I had gearbox issues so up to fifth gear we were both a bit unsure of who was going, but in fifth he pulled out and both kept planted and I went long way round and he was most deffinately not coming by, might have been unto about 140 in the end actually I was running 23psi realistically 280 to be fair.
I'd say he did rather well then
07-12-2011, 06:37 PM
#150
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They rev to something like 9000 rpm IIRC, for the revs they pull the power isn't that impressive.
I appreciate the engineering behind them adn i'm not going to say they are shite, but i just don't like them, to me they are all fart and no shite.
Drove a couple of them in the past and on a local private road with a slight incline, whilst climbing said inclide, i did find them to start to struggle a bit. Whereas the RS 2000 i had at the time (150bhp and 150lb/ft and only revs to 6600ish) wasn't effected to anywhere near the same degree by the same section of 'track' .
From my experience i'd put some of it down to how they are geared - too long IMO, but the majority to how the power is delivered.
I'd like to drive one with a higher final drive to see if that livens them up.
I appreciate the engineering behind them adn i'm not going to say they are shite, but i just don't like them, to me they are all fart and no shite
.Drove a couple of them in the past and on a local private road
with a slight incline, whilst climbing said inclide, i did find them to start to struggle a bit. Whereas the RS 2000 i had at the time (150bhp and 150lb/ft and only revs to 6600ish) wasn't effected to anywhere near the same degree by the same section of 'track' .From my experience i'd put some of it down to how they are geared - too long IMO, but the majority to how the power is delivered.
I'd like to drive one with a higher final drive to see if that livens them up.
Have a giggle now then, it was!
Td04 at a 10.9 psi on a forged b18 in a civic coupe
Nothing in it to 130,
How it went, I had gearbox issues so up to fifth gear we were both a bit unsure of who was going, but in fifth he pulled out and both kept planted and I went long way round and he was most deffinately not coming by, might have been unto about 140 in the end actually I was running 23psi realistically 280 to be fair.
Td04 at a 10.9 psi on a forged b18 in a civic coupe
Nothing in it to 130,
How it went, I had gearbox issues so up to fifth gear we were both a bit unsure of who was going, but in fifth he pulled out and both kept planted and I went long way round and he was most deffinately not coming by, might have been unto about 140 in the end actually I was running 23psi realistically 280 to be fair.
Also there was no reason to forge at that power level.
07-12-2011, 07:05 PM
#152
Chip, are you trying to say Rickylee woUld send somethi out un mapped
It may be a td05, I dont know these turbos well
Ricky, you told him it was 350iirc and now he's running a bar of boost it should be near 400
It's high comp chip, or what I'd consider for a turbo engine not 11:1 standard but in the 9s I think. Ricky specced it all
Ps, nice get out class with mo
It may be a td05, I dont know these turbos well
Ricky, you told him it was 350iirc and now he's running a bar of boost it should be near 400
It's high comp chip, or what I'd consider for a turbo engine not 11:1 standard but in the 9s I think. Ricky specced it all
Ps, nice get out class with mo
07-12-2011, 07:14 PM
#153
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Chip, are you trying to say Rickylee woUld send somethi out un mapped
It may be a td05, I dont know these turbos well
Ricky, you told him it was 350iirc and now he's running a bar of boost it should be near 400
It's high comp chip, or what I'd consider for a turbo engine not 11:1 standard but in the 9s I think. Ricky specced it all
Ps, nice get out class with mo
It may be a td05, I dont know these turbos well
Ricky, you told him it was 350iirc and now he's running a bar of boost it should be near 400
It's high comp chip, or what I'd consider for a turbo engine not 11:1 standard but in the 9s I think. Ricky specced it all
Ps, nice get out class with mo
Our basic turbo kit at 300hp, (I very rarely do more than 300hp on them) I advise bigger. Does around 13.0-13.3 on the quarter at 106-110mph. At 400hp they do 12.0-12.4 (proven many times over)
Edit, to say, I certainly wouldn't spec any car to be forged to run 300hp, its a complete waste of time/money.
Last edited by RickyLee53; 07-12-2011 at 07:16 PM.
07-12-2011, 07:17 PM
#155
Its rory's car Ricky. Don't get me wrong its bloody quick, but I thought it would leave me standing, I said it would be a genuine 310-320bhp as after 140 I would expect he'd be reeling me in.
It deffinately dosnt go like 350 though, it may do now it has the boost up but not the weather for taking me out in it he reckons
It deffinately dosnt go like 350 though, it may do now it has the boost up but not the weather for taking me out in it he reckons
07-12-2011, 07:31 PM
#156
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Its rory's car Ricky. Don't get me wrong its bloody quick, but I thought it would leave me standing, I said it would be a genuine 310-320bhp as after 140 I would expect he'd be reeling me in.
It deffinately dosnt go like 350 though, it may do now it has the boost up but not the weather for taking me out in it he reckons
It deffinately dosnt go like 350 though, it may do now it has the boost up but not the weather for taking me out in it he reckons
shame I sold me engine now
07-12-2011, 08:33 PM
#158
I love my EP3, I bought it standard and have done a few mods now. I think they are good bang for buck and for what I've spent on performance mods I think it's pretty good power.
My mods now are-
Engine & Gearbox Mods:
DC sports Manifold
DC sports cat back
Uprated energy engine mounts
Gruppe M
Funky power lambda eliminator
Dasteq Q+ ECU remapped by Wallace Performance 236.9bhp 182 ft/lb's
DC5 Gearbox - Shorter 4th, 5th and 6th
Spoon 5.1 final drive kit
Spoon (kaaz) 1.5 way plated diff
F1 Racing Stage 4, 6 paddle clutch
Engine running on Castrol Edge 0W30 fully synthetic oil
Gearbox running on Kaaz LSD gear oil - 80w-90
Brakes & Suspension:
Tein Superstreet Coilovers with adjustable top mounts
Stop Tech 330mm front brakes with red stuff pads
Drilled and grooved rear discs with mintex pads
Rear camber arms
Fast road setup
Wheels and Tyres:
17" x 7.5" Compomotive MO5 wheels powder coated in white. DC5 offset for wider track. Conti Sports.
Body & Interior:
JDM wind deflectors
Funky power mud flaps
One off debadged front grill
Oil Temp and Water Temp in carbon holder in car
Genuine Honda Type R mats
I'll happily take anyone out a run in it to show them how good / bad it is.
I do however agree there are alot of bams own them but it's the same with most cars. I bought mines because I like it, I'm not into the whole jap scene.
My mods now are-
Engine & Gearbox Mods:
DC sports Manifold
DC sports cat back
Uprated energy engine mounts
Gruppe M
Funky power lambda eliminator
Dasteq Q+ ECU remapped by Wallace Performance 236.9bhp 182 ft/lb's
DC5 Gearbox - Shorter 4th, 5th and 6th
Spoon 5.1 final drive kit
Spoon (kaaz) 1.5 way plated diff
F1 Racing Stage 4, 6 paddle clutch
Engine running on Castrol Edge 0W30 fully synthetic oil
Gearbox running on Kaaz LSD gear oil - 80w-90
Brakes & Suspension:
Tein Superstreet Coilovers with adjustable top mounts
Stop Tech 330mm front brakes with red stuff pads
Drilled and grooved rear discs with mintex pads
Rear camber arms
Fast road setup
Wheels and Tyres:
17" x 7.5" Compomotive MO5 wheels powder coated in white. DC5 offset for wider track. Conti Sports.
Body & Interior:
JDM wind deflectors
Funky power mud flaps
One off debadged front grill
Oil Temp and Water Temp in carbon holder in car
Genuine Honda Type R mats
I'll happily take anyone out a run in it to show them how good / bad it is.
I do however agree there are alot of bams own them but it's the same with most cars. I bought mines because I like it, I'm not into the whole jap scene.
Last edited by 3FRD; 07-12-2011 at 08:39 PM. Reason: Added a pic
07-12-2011, 08:57 PM
#159
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Loves it! 