Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

I am looking over the next couple of years to turn my car into a regular track day beast.

currently ive got 380bhp/380lbft so Ive got plenty of power for a bit of fun for the time being. Any higher and i need expensive straight cut boxes, heavily uprated diffs etc which spirals the costs madly so those bits will have to wait until im working full time so the next best thing to power is loosing weight!

So my plan for the time being is to get extra bhp/ton by weight saving. So long term i will be stripping the interior out but for now im going to start by learning to fabricate lighter panels out of carbon fibre composites. My current panels are made of fibreglass reinforced with kevlar and are thick and heavy.

Luckily some parts i can get off the shelf and are cheaper to buy than make my own moulds etc but anything else i will make myself.

These are some weights from carbon panels people have done before so i know roughly how much i will save:

Part original weight carbon weight
bonnet 26kg 6kg
fr. bumper 10kg 2kg plus 1kg splitter
wings (ea.) 9kg 2.5kg
doors (ea.) 36kg 6kg with plastic window 13kg with electric window
roof 21kg 4kg
rear qtr (ea.) 11kg 3kg
tailgate 48kg 10kg with plastic window
rr bumper 10kg 4kg with diffuser set up

So thats saving 163kg and that's just the core exterior panels. There is loads of inner wing panels etc that can be cut out plus the weight saving from stripping interior. Various plastic trim panels can be remade in carbon too.

weight savings from stripping interior:

Front seats 20 based on lightweight replacements
Rear seats 10
Carpet 3
Headlining & spare wheel hanger 5.5
Parcel shelf & mats 4
Boot lining 2.5
Interior trim (various) 13.4
Front door cards 4 based on refitting carbon ones
Soft sound deadening (under carpets) 10.7
Rear quarter trims 4 based on refitting carbon ones
stereo, speakers and wiring 8.4 based on refitting intercom/headsets
Speaker boxes 2.5
Airbag module and harness 1.7
Self adhesive sound deadening 10.5
total 100kg

So thats a total of 263kg off the shell and that doesnt include various metal brakets and any further metal i cut off the shell.

Im planning from trimming metal off the shell to make fitting of a roll cage weight neutral.

so considering it weighs 1250kg now then i could get it just under a ton which would be nice.

Im thinking there must be other ways i can loose weight off the shell.

Ive got some lightweight speedline wheels to replace the chunky RL7s so that should knock a bit off the unsprung weight.

Might sound a bit complicated but im wondering if when i have roll cage fitted it can be made much tighter to the shell around the ABC pillers and roof surround. The idea being those areas are triple skinned so i could cut out one of the inner skins, have the cage butted right upto the remaining skins and welded onto the shell as well as the other cage bars.

That way i can remove lots of original metal that isnt needed as the structural integrity of the shell has been replaced by the superior strength roll cage. Im thinking that any non roll cage metal above the cars waist height (ie bottom window line up) will be minimum necessary to hold on the body panels

Also maybe ditch the front crossmember/slam panel and replace with lighter tubing or maybe even a carbon/kevlar moulding to save some weight on the front and ensure if i later upgrade intercooler, i can fit a nice big one to keep charge temps down.

I was thinking maybe go as far as cutting out the inner sills majorly and just replacing it with a roll cage tube between main hoop and A pillar as the heavy crash stiffening there has been replaced by the door cross bars anyway. Maybe once thats done, cut out the actual floor pan itself either side of the tunnel and put a diagnal tube across for structural stiffness, with a simple carbon kevlar honeycomb sandwich panel as the floor. I guess i could do the same with a lot of the boot floor too especially as im planning on the cage having links between rear strut tops and the diff mounts.

any more ideas how mad i can go on lightening the shell???

space frame the front end totally would be ultimate but sending it to AG is a bit beyond my means!!

Wenny seems to have hacked a lot out of his shell too!!

Ideas??

bluntys1rsturbo

sounds like a good plan mate will make a big diff to it on the track thats for sure isnt there any parts of the engine that you can lighten eg flywheel, battery etc ? it all adds up

Turbosimpsons

iTrader: (3)

go on a diet.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Personally I would just go and get some seat time in it as it is before you do ANY of that stuff, trackdays arent really about the ultimate power to weight ratio or not in the first place, they are about enjoying your car and its already far more than quick enough to do that.

Just get out there and use it!

RS Combe isnt long away now, bring it to that, its a fantastic open session day where you can get loads of track time in

TimC

iTrader: (1)

Have to agree with Chip, get out there and enjoy it and make improvements as time goes on.

Another thing to note is, all you have mentioned is shedding alot of weight, and although that is quite important, try to get the car on a set of corner scales and concentrate on getting the balance of the car correct. For track days, this will benefit you far more then just putting the car on a crash diet.

turbotoaster

i would say your looking at a custom cage due to you wanting to take extra metal out of the shell, if you were using a standard cage you would need to gusset the extra distance between the tube and the shell itself which adds weight to the overall car offsetting the amount you have cut out.

be careful though mate as this is a big job and you might end up having a car like mine...in a million bits with no sign of it getting done(im getting the feeling hes messing me around now)

Id agree with what others have said, you carry around about 100kg worth of stuff with you all the time, remove that, stick a pair of bucket seats in it and take it on trackdays, once you have mastered it(and can change gear in under a minute) then look at shedding more weight.

if you desperate to get it lighter, just strip the inside out of stuff you dont want...ie carpet etc, you can look at the cage and carbon bits next year when your more flush......as its free to remove interior compared to buying carbon panels

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

agree with above but with what you are going to spend on full carbon panels,lightweight seats you could prob upgrade bhp ,straight cut box and uprated diffs if you shop carefully.
plus a custom cage of the spec / complexity your talking about will prob cost you over 2k mate.
IMO bucket seats,harness' and some yoko 048's and get out on the track.

COCHYN

Great ideas there Warren, get it done and sell me your RL7's

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

cunt but you do have a point, every little helps
Ive had it on 4 trackdays over the last 3 years. Plus i used to do 6 or so a year when i had the old stripped out puma.

The seating position is too high in this car, helmet touching roof! Its a bit higher than a standard car as the guy who built it decided to fit the electric adjust seat which cannot go fully down due to the tunnel effecting the mechanism! So straight away i need to remove the carpets to weld in seat bars.

Ive had a stripped out car before so im aware of the compromises although i'll have to admit that for over 300 mile journeys, fixed buckets are a bit of a pain but i dont do that kind of mileage since i left the mob.

The only thing thats stopped be doing gradual upgrades in the past has been money, where as now i have enough disposable income to spend a grand every couple of months so a gradual morphing seems a good idea. The panels are being done first and then i will get bits for the interior. I have everything bar the seats for the interior from my last car. The interior stripping will be a all in one job due to fitting a cage necessitating it.
wont i have to put it on corner scales every few months as things change to keep a reasonable balance??

btcc93

When you get it on the scales make sure you are in the car, with the seat in exactly the same position as you will drive in, wear the clothes, ie race suit, helmet etc you will normally have on when using the car on the track. Don't under estimate the weight of the roll cage, after removing all the interior, all none essential sections of the dash, window winder mechs on all doors except drivers, getting shut of the cast manifold, having just a CF race seat but still with all glass fitted the six point roll took the weight of the car to just 3kg less than the Ford published standard weight. That 3k was lost in the weight of the helmet

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

i know it needs a custom cage. I have someone who can make me a custom cage at a fair price considerably less than retail if i went to a cage company or motorsport prep place. Can also build it to comply with MSA regs if i ever wanted to race properly.
problem is i can get more power with a new turbo, injectors and remap for about Ł2k to do it decently but then i would definitely destroy my gearbox on a regular basis on road use let alone track.

380lbft is already at the limit of a standard box as it is so more power isnt going to help me and to be fair even at 1250kg 380hp is more than enough to push the car beyond its limits .

to get a decent gearbox which solves the ratio problems of the MT75 (which you'd want if your bothering to upgrade the box) costs around Ł4k, then a grand on the front diff, hydraulic clutch conversion, probably renew the clutch too by then. So thats Ł6k easily and i could still kill rear diffs and be chasing breakages on the shafts and having to upgrade them too.

Also more power means i will quickly get to the point where i need better brakes. Again more money!

So i dont think power is the way forward at the moment.

The carbon panels arent that expensive TBH as i am making quite a few of them.

turbotoaster

having more power just helps accelaration, less weight helps everything!!

better accelaration,
later braking with less strain on the brakes,
less suspension loading so heavier duty spring rates might not be required, less weight transfer so faster cornering,
less strain on transmission so less chance of breakages
potentially less strain on engine(depends how its mapped)

overall if someone offered me 500bhp at 1200kg or 400bhp at 1000kg id take the less weight option.

Dlatch!

getting it lighter is win win, so i would definitely keep along those lines.
if your setup is reliable at that power then for trackdays it seems more than enough to me.
so plan of action would be (if it was mine)

carbon panels & stripped interior
full cage
race seats and harness
best brakes i could afford

then save spare money to actually pay for trackdays

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

a 3kg helmet?? you must have big neck muscles mate...most helmets ive seen used are 1.5kg

Fast Guy

Is it the puma in your sig you're referring too? Some of those standard weights look massive compared my gtir, maybe ford use alot thicker metal. I've done quite abit on your list and only lost 160ish kg.
The standard Gtir bonnet with a big rubber seal for the top mount is only 16kg. Doors are about 23kgmax with side impact beams 5kg less without. Tailgate was about 23ish too.

Other things to consider are lightweight 16" wheels with small diammeter tyres(depending on your brakes). My Volk TE37s are 5.1kg each.
Side exit exhaust, lightweight flywheel pulleys and anything else that rotates. My coilovers weighed less than the standard set up.

With the power you have, losing the weigh won't make as big a difference as it did on my car with lower power. I lost 0.5s over the quarter with 246bhp. You might only lose 0.3s if you lose 250kg. It's alot of work and money for little return unless you're in a competetive series.

OldDan

And make sure all the tyre pressures are the same, and disconnect ARB's!

For cage use gussett plates to join the cage to the shell around the pillars.

btcc93

Quite right I'm of an age that used imperial and metric, 3 lbs was what i should have said.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

yep its the car in the sig. The car has been weighed properly at 1250kg. All the weights are actual weights of real parts.
guess your GTIR is made of thin tin metal. Not surprising with 10 years between the designs really.

I dont do qtr mile so couldnt give a shit about a gay 0.3s. Loosing 250kg will make far more than half a second difference around a track.

wibbler

If you're going to change the wheels, panels, running gear, strip the interior and all the rest on a car that is already built, why not just start again with another car?

Just seems like it's undoing a fair amount of the existing work on a road legal running car, when you could do the same modifications to another shell and the extra fab work to fit the running gear wouldn't be too much extra?

Obviously it's your car and you can do what you like with it but to me it feels like a waste of what is already there.

btcc93

Blimey there is a big weight discrepency there, Fords quoted kerbweight for a Puma is in the 1030 to 1040 kg range. A base model early Mondeo is only quoted as 1216 kg.

turbotoaster

you forget that hes running full 4x4 cosworth running gear, and wide arches all that adds up

andy escos

iTrader: (1)

you also forgot the 130kg driver


















only joking mate sounds like a good plan to me

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Theres a lot more fab work to the shell than you think.

remember id make a loss on selling the current car if i wanted to sell it any time quickly.
then ive got to pay someone to do the cossie conversion which isnt cheap when its done to the same standard as mine was, plus its all running gear too. My engine has only done 10k since build so again not cheap plus brakes, plus wheels and all the little bits and thats before i touch the costs of the body work and cage (although in reality youd do the cage at shell fab stage).
There's a lot of new/nearly new parts on my car that would make it impossible to match the spec if i built it from scratch and hoped to keep it to the same amount the car cost me.
Ford racing puma kerb weight is 1174kg. remember mine is similar in body panels to a FRP except a bit wider all round and my panels are all heavy GRP compared to thin light alloy on the FRP.

Also the FRP has a light all alloy engine and FWD box where ive swapped to a heavier iron blocked engine and heavy 4wd transmission and rear beam.

So 1250kg seems right on the money really. And obviously i wouldnt expect a calibrated weighbridge to be massively out either.

cunt
Im not that heavy!

turbotoaster

hes 129kg and dont you forget in andy, my god you will give him a complex!!

wibbler

I have to admit I'd put an offer on the car as it is if I thought it would be accepted, but I doubt that would happen.

The thing is, to me the value of it is that it's currently a properly built trimmed shell, without a cage so not compromised for road use, and most importantly it's built/registered as it currently is rather than some retro-conversion that is going to trip me up come MOT time.

If you chop it about to the extent you're talking about to turn it into a trackday car you're going to compromise it and your going to restrict the market for it even more. And you'd definitely not see the money back.

My honest personal suggestion would be to do the absolute bare minimum to it for the odd day when you want to track it, and for a lightweight track car to get something dedicated so you don't worry about messing it up. There's a lot out there on the market.

Spiky

iTrader: (1)

get the the car on track,

THEN, see where yo need to make improvements/adjustments

zetaboostboy522bhp

light weight seats , alloy fuel tank , carbon panels, billet alloy uprights all round , billet wrc tcas , wrc rear cradle , wrc ties arms , and holes saw and swage every metal internal panel that you can as i wouldnt cut anything out unless your going to add strenght

ps i think mk motorsport might just have another customer lol
no really theres nothing to the rear cradle and the uprights are light as a feather
but all super strong

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

warren, i have a pair of cobra suzuka's, side mounts, willans harness'and a pro alloy fuel cell for sale!

left hooker

have a huge dump that makes me feel lighter normaly
on a serious note strip the interior but as others have said go out and injoy a few trackdays first as with all that power its nice to have some weight on the back axle for traction

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

traction was something my 3dr had a distinct lack of, i had removed everything possible to lighten the shell, and when the first shift light came on at 6k rpm, that was about the time that the rear end started to go past

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Remember I know where you live, i know where you work and i know all your habbits and patterns
Im not in it as an investment TBH. Not thinking of selling it for years anyway. As it stands its too specialist to get much interest. The people who do love it and want it dont have the money, and as the shell stands its no use to anyone in motorsport either. Although if the price was low enough im sure someone would have the shell. Even if i stripped and caged it, it would still be same situation with breaking being best option. so money wise it doesnt make a difference really.

I dont mind compromising it by stripping it. Ive lived with a caged car before so i know what its like and id be sensible to leave in some kind of heater and electric windows for convienience. Id also put a carbon bulkhead in where the back of rear seats were so i can put stuff in boot for road use. Its a pain if you go to tescos, then find your tins have made it from back to front of the car about 10 times in a journey

LOL. Several people do the same type of package suspension wise so id choose whose best not necessarily cheapest. Suspension comes after ive done the shell really. decide on a beam etc.
im 4wd remember.

RSMK4TURBO

Off topic ,but Warren was your car out on Victoria Road tonight?

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

i drive down victoria road most days so probably!

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

i know its 4x4, but cant you get a slide on in one of those lol?

anyway, seats etc are still here... hint hint hint etc

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

eventually yeah but its harder than rwd to get the back end out.
your not subtle

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

i havnt sold them yet either!