Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Bullshit . You sat there with your I-phone and added it all up !

Anyway, I didn't need to - Excel does that for you .

Chip

iTrader: (3)

There arent 52K of parts in it im sure, but there is well and truely the right side of 30K at retail money plus a fuck load of development work.

If Mike can knock them out at 25K and still make himself a profit like he is implying then for the first time ever he might actually be selling something that is really good value

How much Did you and Harvey charge Micheal for his engine Mike? Cause its looking like he could have had a lot better spec for the money based on your prices now?

xr-stu

id just like to point out the rediculousness of charging £52k for an engine, but then having the cheak to ask £100 extra for postage

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

I'd certainly be happier to knock them out for nigh on £53k . However, I hear what you're saying about development, but it looks like this one engine is paying for all that .

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If it looks like that to you Mike, then clearly you have no idea of the costs involved.

You're too used to being around people building engines of an established spec where its only a tweak from one engine to the next (thats not a dig at Harvey, if you look at what Mark is doing its similar)
Thats not what JG is doing, he goes off at some properly weird and properly expensive tangents whilst looking for the right spec for his engines from what I gather, just the amount of money that he has spent trying to keep a head gasket on an engine for example would need the sale of quite a few of these im sure, and thats before you go anywhere near mindfields like camshaft profile and what compression ratio to end up on.

Seriously you are absolutely dreaming if you think that 10K of development budget gets you anywhere near where JG is!


You could build an engine ALMOST to this spec for 40K with ease, but being half a second a lap slower due to lack of devil in the details isnt worth the 10K saving over going to the undisputed king of building these sort of competition engines!

You're too used to the go faster road car and trackday market I think Mike!

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Michael's engine only cost him what he did, as he kept changing the spec, requiring it being completely re-engineered . It started off as my old 500bhp engine (topped and tailed) on a standard block and Super P8, but when he saw what I was having, he had to have the same . So everytime he heard what I was having, he said "I want that on mine too" , so it ended up being a replica of my current engine, but with a bigger turbo (he decided that he had to be better ).

So went to wet Nikasil steel linered, Mountune roller barrel and T6 580bhp - not much of a goal-post move .

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

That's your opinion of what you think I know, and you're entitled to it .

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

So are you agreeing that Chip does have a valid point about how/why JG's engine costs so much?

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Nope.

I'd like to see the likes of Steve(boyslim) put his list of parts costs down .

However, if JG can sell these for that, then IMO, he is a brilliant businessman .

steveboyslim

I just gave a few examples.
Other example would be the drysump set up, your are about £4k under the cost.
E-mail the motorsport devision of Honeywell Garrett for some prices of their ALMS/WRC turbos, see how much change you have from £9K.

Steve

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Be brave and use your knowledge to put the correct figures (for the exact spec as you know it ) beside mine .

steveboyslim

I could not be accurate enough, as that engine uses a different designed parts, as an example, a crank with more counter balance weight, so you cannot compare prices with what is listed on various web sites, but as I said I could get to £42k in parts quite easily.
There is a valid point to be made and that there are other winning engines which cost far less.

Steve

DaveEscos

It's 'iPhone'! Get with the times man!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Well if you know anything else about the actual costs involved in developing an engine to this level, it seems strange you are not demonstrating any of that knowledge.

Seriously 1.8K for the headwork along with the Nimonic valves and proper springs etc?
Would love to see your breakdown on that one and see how much you have actually allowed for a few dozen hours of JG's labour after you take the parts cost out of it, you do know that he isnt on minimum wage dont you mike?

1K for fuel and mapping?
Fucking hell I would want a minimum of a couple of half days on the dyno for that engine even with one his basemaps to work from for a similar engine, and imagine the number of gallons of race fuel I would be getting through at about 9 quid a litre, you do realise that it doesnt run on optimax dont you mike? Dyno rental of zero I assume? Or would you propose that the mapping is done up the A12 to keep the costs down?

Seriously mate, LOTS of your costs are out by being about half or less of the real cost, custom made arrow crank to your specification of counter weight etc for 1500 quid? Fuck me you are on better discount than anyone else I know then!

Likewise the tubo, 2k? Its not available off the shelf Mike!

pee vee

9k for a turbo!? Bloody hell, I'll stick with my gt25 lol

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

And THAT was the point I was making .

It is MY considered opinion that I could have comparible engine built for less, that would be as good (or better) and for less money. And FYI, my reasoning is based on the 700bhp JG YB that Andy Gallagher purchased......

And you know that is true as well .

ian sibbert

We are looking are going historic spec with a mk2 and 52K for an engine like that seems a bargain when you consider the build costs associated with any bespoke or low production run engine...the BD's we are looking at cost 15 K ish in kit form....

I was going to mention the turbo because that along with the other parts on this motor will have a serious price tag...

Your in the realm of real commercial motorsport not track cars and fast road stuff...you get what you pay for and anything built by JG will be first class...

And finally profit...I am in business and I dont know what others consider to be a decent mark up but i'd be looking at the kind of mark up JG has obviously put on these parts plus a reasonable amount of labour for the build, plus the cost of his business operation, staff, rates, utilities, they all take a lot of paying for...without profit he may as well shut the doors...lol....then like a lot of other top notch british businesses we'll have nothing to complain about.....

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Indeed, a lot of the parts that Mike seems to think he can get away with for half the costs are twice the price for a reason, and that reason is proven motorsport reliability, by over speccing some of the parts (crank for example) you are paying an insurance premium against pissing your sponsors off or losing points from a DNF due to an engine failure.

The pulley fell off with the nose of Mike's crank at the ring without ever seeing anything like the abuse that a rallycross engine gets, presumabley down to a harmonic imbalance, thats exactly the sort of thing that JG is mitigating against with some of his very expensive custom components.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Chip,
Even by your own estimations, £40k is still somewhat shy of £53k . However, if you personally think that this engine represents good value for money, then JGs marketing is the best there is .

I have a carpet fitter friend (Charlie) who priced up a big hall owned by the local scrap dealer. He was TOLD the price he had to beat and what carpet / underlay was being used and he went in ULTRA competitive and beat the quote by £8k (£12k compared to £20k - just for carpets ) on a LIKE FOR LIKE basis. The guy went for the £20k quote, because he was convinced he would be getting better carpets for the extra money .

I personally think you are like that guy .

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

See post 57 .

steveboyslim

That was an old spec engine, which is why I did not bid any more when Charlie was selling it.

Steve

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Just as well .

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thats because JG is doing two things other than supplying you just the parts:
1) covering a portion of his very expensive development costs
2) making a fairly good living

I dont believe that the parts cost of that engine is 52K, but then no one in this thread does because if it was then JG would be out of business in an instant, he sells things for more than he buys them for, just like you do.

Would you like me to start disecting the prices on your website and pointing out how much cheaper they can all be got for from somewhere else if you know the right people and then you'll drop your prices till they are the same so you make no profit? As that is what you seem to be asking JG to do.

And thats just to buy them off you, a relatively clueless middle man who is selling products that sometimes he doesnt even understand how they work, only really a step up from people buying and selling on ebay really, nothing like the level of knowledge and expertise that you are paying from with JG to assure you get the correct parts!

steveboyslim

I sure you did but have you tried KAM Developments for a BDG kit.

Steve

PS think your self lucky, a DFV can cost £25k to rebuild without replacing any of the major components.

Steve

carlo

iTrader: (4)

I can see a 10 pager coming up on this thread it has the ingredient's = Chip ,Mike + Danny anyone else with me ?

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

I would like to see how long 'rainmans' engine would last in a European rallycross race.
Turbos in these have inconel shafts not maram and are closer to steves price than mikes.

caprizetec170

Its actually quiet cheap when you think of all work involed and price of parts.
Put it this way last year i fitted 308bhp 2litre XE into a Mk2 escort along with a 6speed DRENTH sequential which cost 33k and 16k plus 2k for flat shift so thats
51k euro

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Indeed, like I said, Mike is used to buying a load of parts he has been told work, and selling them on to people for using on their road or trackday cars, nothing like this level, Im not even involved in motorsport and yet am aware of the premium on some of the materials used for things like the turbo shafts, the custom crank costs, the cost of the nimonic valves etc, and mike mentions a WRC gasket, but doesnt actually mention that its probably had the centres cut out of it and been run with berilium rings to seal the combustion gasses in instead, talk about only seeing a small fraction of the story!

The devil is in the details, and Mike has either not understood or chosen not to mention ANY of them!

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Usual "Chipocrite" style posting . On the one hand, my prices are not good value, but on the other, everyone elses are ?

ian sibbert

Mike,

You do get what you pay for in this world despite what the vast majority of Britain might think, to buy a quality item at the correct price is the key. I would not want to pay 52K for that engine if we had the need, we would negotiate and get it at a reduced price with the assurances that there would be no slip in quality and workmanship...negotiation is different to just matching a price to buy work...that method of business sets you on a road to bankrupcy...lol...

Chip

iTrader: (3)

You're prices are broadly about fair IMHO, but NONE of them are "really good value", and so is JG's price broadly fair on this sort of engine, if you were selling this engine at half the price he is though, then it would be very good value and would be the only thing that you were selling that is.

No hypocracy in that at all, other than of course from you as you are trying to say that JG with all his knowledge and development costs shouldnt be able to mark up the parts prices by the same amount as a hobbyist with no real clue like yourself.

So I think you probably need to look a little bit closer at where you are pointing the finger there TBH Mike. There is only ONE hypocrit in this thread, and it most certainly is YOU!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Indeed, the 52K is clearly a starting point for negotiation and an example of what sort of ballpark the costs are in, JG isnt tescos!

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

You mean like my WRC gasket is modified? How else do you think I have 93mm bore?

As I said Chip, I am happy for you to make assumptions of what you think I know or what you think is in my engine - those kind of assumptions only make a fool out of one of us .

And FYI, Farndon have completely redesigned their cranks now (where the failure was due to crank design, but then I suppose I am responsible for them doing it wrong ), but I'd still rather have an Arrow one .

DaveEscos

Mike 'middle man list rrp' Rainbird

Has a nice RING to it!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Not modified in the same way unless you are running rings on yours now?
If so then once again you are simply totally misquoting the prices.



Im not making any assumptions at all, I didnt even mention your head gasket on your own engine as I have no idea what you are running nor would I pretend to, I just pointed out that your prices you listed for such things didnt include enough money for the actual parts and labour involved in using them in the way which JG does.

You arent responsible AT ALL Mike, as unlike JG you arent even involved in the development process, you are just buying something off the shelf and either selling it on to others at a marked up price where you make a profit without adding ANY value to the deal, or you are buying them and using yourself, and then in either case when it fails its unfortunate for you or your customer but you'll just shrug your shoulders and point them back to the supplier who sold you the faulty part that you added a bit of money to and then passed onto a customer.

JG however is making sure that the parts he buys are up to the job in the first place with expensive development and with custom spec'ing of components, and THAT is why its worth paying the extra for a crank from him, cause it wont fail like one from you might.

He isnt just selling parts off the shelf like you are, he is developing them, and thats why his prices are higher.


Am genuinely amazed if you really cant see that!


Look at those lethal top mounts you were selling on to people to make a few quid on at the risk of their lives for example, were you doing that because you didnt understand they were dangerous, or because you didnt care about damage to your reputation if people realised you were selling something dangerous?
Which is it?

Cause in JG's case, its neither, if you buy something from him, its because he has proved it works, not because he has seen a quick profit and not bothered to look into it like yourself!

I've answered all your questions, but you seem to be avoiding all mine, you havent even given the breakdown on that 1800 quid of parts and headwork yet for example?

zippyobrien

iTrader: (2)

Is there any thing to say you have to run a yb? Surely you could a better motor sport lump for that figure.

I can see were development costs come in, those on here that no me no what area of business i work in, were allowed no failures of any thing,
A simple dowled end plate for 'something' (canter go into detail) cost 38 thousand of you English pounds to develop and test.

It's was only 200mm in diameter and pretty simple., takes an hour to manufacture.


Only covering his development fees

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Load of industries like that, I used to write software for controlling power stations, and when you are building a power station the washers used in the working parts are about 3 quid each and are that price for a good reason (tracking) even though you could buy "nearly" the same thing for 3p if you didnt understand the difference or why that difference mattered.

Things always seem expensive when you dont understand them.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

See Ian's post, but no, you'd rather take a moral high-ground and belittle people and twist their words as you always do

However, to clarify: I too would not pay £53k for this engine and believe (and am entitled to), that I could get the same or better quality by using an alternative supplier. That is MY choice. If you or anyone else wished to go with JG, that is YOUR choice and I am not knocking it. I am just saying I think it is overpriced. We can all pay our money and make our own choices. So please don't resort to attempting to belittle me and my choices / opinions just because they do not suit your own.

It ALWAYS ends up being about you and YOUR assumptions of everyone else, which is just out of order.

Why couldn't you just be pleasant and disagree like Ian and Steve have, it would be so much better for everyone else if the discussion could be kept pleasant? You ALWAYS have to resort to derisive / assumptive comments based purely on YOUR opinion, rather than the facts. Why you feel the need to bring into question my business / mechanical knowledge, I can only assume is down to your lack of self confidence or the feeling of power this may give you to try to put people down, but I find it extremely unpleasant and unneccessary .

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

We don't even know if JG's is a package with support or 'some type' of guarantee( not usual in a race item). If these were costing him 20k to build and selling for 50k I am sure we will see him retiring to Marbella soon lol.
Well mike , get your equivalent spec motor built and let them test it... Am sure if it the same and as reliable all these rallycross champs would rather pay 30k than 50k per motor.... You never know it might turn into a profitable business.... Mile rainbird engineering'