showtime

hi just joined the forum looking to get either a st or astra vxr as i need 3 seats in the back due to a new arrival. whats the difference between the st2 and st3 and does it have a limited slip diff i like the st as it has a 2.5 litre engine. i will be looking to tune them to 300 plus anyway but the bigger engine is usally stronger. any advice is appreciated

trevorcossie

get a vxr to many sts about or look at the mazda 3 mps ..i have one its the nuts full bose stereo the lot

kris-rs

this is a ford forum so its gotta be a st-3
i think either would be a good choice

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

depends if you want a car that handles or to pose about saying oooh i got xxx bhp.

VXR has more power but will understeer into the nearest hedge

ST less power but handles better

trevorcossie

st3 got pukka seats and sound immense

Rick Astley

Can't get an ST-3 if you need 3 seats in the back as it's only a four seater.

rst in breaking

iTrader: (2)

mate says st's are known to crack heads or needs thicker liners or something over 300bhp????

craigybaby

get an st2 Im gonna say this but get an st lol imo i drove a vxr nurburg before i brought mine and prefer the st any day of the week and there are loads of bits for them ive got mine running 304bhp and love it the sound and the looks but one thing i will say are st's are heavy on fuel im currently averaging 19.3 mpg.

Glenn_

iTrader: (1)

Not another comic.Well i hope not.Its gonna have to be a ST3 isnt it.

3i_gaz

mazda 3 MPS what an immense little car, owuld have one of these over an ST or VXR any day of the week

trevorcossie

they are mustard .....and rare and quick for a standard car

thebigmacmoomin

& as the police use the Focus ST, they know that its a 4 seater.

ST2 is the one for you. The only difference between the 2 and 3 is the full leather and sculpted rears.

Andy

mk2rstaff

st3 all day long but in a subtle colourlike the white or blue

Drunken Master

Astra VXR - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F2Z9CGVK-8

Fit a Diff and rear roll bar and lowering springs and you've got something much better than an ST

Enough said

turbo_3dr_tommy

if it was me i would be getting a Arden blue VXR with keyless entry, push button start, sat nav, piano black interior with the 19's

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

How much would it cost to have all that done?

As said, the ST3 is only a four seater, so go for ST2, but it's just no contest. Yes the Ashtray is slightly faster, but big woop, doesn't matter how quick it is when it's buried in a ditch

Benni

But then you are comparing a modified car to a standard one.

Benni.

Drunken Master

Standard for standard the VXR is a better car, but it can be alot better with a few chosen mods. The car in the video still has standard suspension.

BazW

ever driven one? they handle very well

I work for Ford and I'd still rather take the VXR over the Focus

mozzy

no not better, a little quicker but definatly not better..
watch this it should help you decide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeXr50LNJfM

turbo_3dr_tommy

i would aswell mate

people go on about when JC took it round the top gear track but that wasnt the final product and had the astra sport suspension not the VXR suspension and my mate has 1 remapped and even that dont torque steer as much as the one on TG

not saying the ST is a bad car but could of been alot better

mozzy

I have driven a vxr and felt it was very quick but i dont like the car in general and nthe handling is not upto to that of the st, they understeer like pigs

Drunken Master

Such aload of crap, The suspension on the vxr is good its got passive dampers designed by lotus! Don't blame the equipment when it's 10x better than the driver! I've already made my choice no matter what you want to say the ST feels nose heavy and thats something you can't change!

BazW

I read about that too...they pestered Vauxhall to have a VXR for the show, got an unfinished car then ripped it to bits

If you can't make a VXR go round corners you shouldn't be driving quick cars at all IMHO

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

So what we've established is that the only way Vauxhall can produce a car that handles, is to give it to Lotus to fix after they've fucked it up

As for Ford making the ST better. They did, it's called the RS.

I think every review I've ever read about any of these hot hatches puts the Focus above the Astra in terms of handling, with the Golf/Focus seemingly always fighting for top spot. In my experience, Vauxhall are still way behind Ford in the handling stakes. They're more gutsy with producing performance cars though, I will give them that.

Incidentally, although for flat out pace the Astra is quicker, how do torque figures compare? From lower revs, say a pull from 30mph in 3rd/4th, how would they compare? As the five pot in the Focus is quite a grunty engine I would imagine.

I do find it amusing that fitting different springs and roll bars would make the VXR better than the ST. So if you carried out similar modifications to the Focus, what then? Comparing modified to standard is pointless in this debate.

A lot of it comes down to personal preference of course, we're all entitled to our opinion, but virtually everything I've ever seen on the VXR outside Vauxhalls fans, has it down as a very fast, but pretty wayward, torque steering, understeering beast.

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

More fool Vauxhall then. Clarkson has a history of slating Vauxhalls, so they should have told them to wait til the car was finished and then given them one to test, they're lining themselves up for poor reviews with that sort of thing

adsrs1

get a mk1 focus rs far better car and a lot rarer

BazW

doubt it was that simple...

Drunken Master

You clearly believe everything you read on the internet or watch. Understeer isn't present at all on any modern performance FWD cars given the fact you can drive. Lotus design lots of vauxhall suspension so hardly them getting it wrong and handing it to them. More along the lines of getting it right from the start. The only thing missing was when lotus designed the car they designed it to be used with a rear anti roll bar which wasn't used to make it safer to the public and to premote more understeer (like basically any road going car). The Vxr was also designed to be used with 18 inch wheels vauxhall decided to come up with some heavy flashy 19's which make the ride more crashy. The focus isn't a better handling car despite what you may read it's very nose heavy.

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

Let me disect this more thoroughly

Yes driver input is an important factor, but surely the fact seemed to be that the general consensus is that the Vauxhall is more prone to understeer than the Ford? A fact that didn't seem to win it friends in the motoring press compared to it's rivals.

To be honest, that comment was meant more in jest than anything, as it's a great way to bait Vauxhall fans. It never fails. Like telling them the only good cars Vauxhall have produced were the Lotus Carlton and the VX, both of which were Lotus'

Can't say I've heard that before myself. Seems like a poor decision by Vauxhall, something that was ill thought through? Surely tweaking the anti roll settings would have been more clever, to give it more neutral or understeer biased handling. That suggests to me, that Vauxhall made a poor technical decision that made the car worse than it could have been.

Are the 19s not optional? I thought they came with 18s as standard? I might be wrong of course, just thought I'd seen some with 18s and some with the 19s on.

I can't say I've ever heard of the Focus being described as nose heavy before now. Perhaps personal opinion playing a part?

I think the proof of it is in how many you see. I see Focus ST's every day, in abundance, and yet, the Astra VXR, which I thought was cheaper, and apparently quicker in a straight line, you see very few of by comparison. So unless Stafford is just unusually devoid of Astra VXRs, then the sales figures speak for themselves.

I can't say I've driven either, I'm just going on what I've read/heard from owners, my own experiences on car set up and manufacturer's marketing, partly playing devil's advocate, and partly just causing trouble

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

Perhaps not.

No doubt there would have been pressure from a marketing point of view to get the car out there and in the television spot light.

I'm sure there was countless meetings on whether it was a good idea to release the car to Top Gear in that state, and obviously they decided to do that.

Calculated risk I suppose. They lost though, as the car didn't get a great review, which almost certainly had some impact on sales. As we all know, Clarkson has an army of loyal followers amongst the car buying public.

Incidentally, it's been a long time since I saw the TG review of the VXR, did they mention the fact the car they had wasn't finished?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Mk1 focus RS, at least it has a diff!

If you get a VXR first modificition to do is a diff!

Drunken Master

Thats where the problem lies I've driven both. And lowering springs, Rear anti roll bar and diff and the vxr is brilliant:

Ask this Radical SR3 driver if vxrs can handle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToiQs0Xr0oc

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

Yes but that's just pointless isn't it....

Lets look at it, and this is purely just guess work here cos I can't be bothered to look properly.

How much is a Quaife diff say, what, £500? Plus fitting it, which is going to be a good few hours labour no doubt.

Then the roll bar, how much are they? Plus fitting costs again.

Springs, well, gotta be over £100 notes, plus fitting again, another couple of hours labour.

You've spent quite a bit of money there to be honest.

Fit a diff to the Focus, some springs and some anti-roll bar tweaks, and how do the two compare then? You can't compared a modified VXR against a standard ST, that's irrelevant to the arguement.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and say that due to the amount of STs on the second hand market compared to VXRs, that you could probably buy a Focus for less now? So by the time you've bought your VXR, spent a good bit of money on the upgrades, you're probably a good bit worse off? I might be wrong, I can't be bothered to check prices, but with the ST being so common, I would think you'd probably get one for less.

I haven't driven either, you're right, and I'm not necessarily saying the VXR is a bad car, I'm just going on what I've heard from people who've watched them understeering and tyre smoking their way round the Lotus test track, and the opinion of the majority of the motoring world, is that the Focus ST, from the factory at least, is a better handling car.

A modified VXR might be a fantastic machine, but that isn't quite the point of this debate...

Diseasel

With kids you need a 5 door really so that counts the VXR out, think golf gti, Focus St2, Seat leon K1, Cupra, scooby etc.