So what we've established is that the only way Vauxhall can produce a car that handles, is to give it to Lotus to fix after they've fucked it up

As for Ford making the ST better. They did, it's called the RS.

I think every review I've ever read about any of these hot hatches puts the Focus above the Astra in terms of handling, with the Golf/Focus seemingly always fighting for top spot. In my experience, Vauxhall are still way behind Ford in the handling stakes. They're more gutsy with producing performance cars though, I will give them that.

Incidentally, although for flat out pace the Astra is quicker, how do torque figures compare? From lower revs, say a pull from 30mph in 3rd/4th, how would they compare? As the five pot in the Focus is quite a grunty engine I would imagine.

I do find it amusing that fitting different springs and roll bars would make the VXR better than the ST. So if you carried out similar modifications to the Focus, what then? Comparing modified to standard is pointless in this debate.

A lot of it comes down to personal preference of course, we're all entitled to our opinion, but virtually everything I've ever seen on the VXR outside Vauxhalls fans, has it down as a very fast, but pretty wayward, torque steering, understeering beast.