Anyone got any engine bay pics of the Delta S4 or others to see how they did it?

The only one ive seen in detail was the PowerEngineering Mk1 Fester and that had a turbo blowing into a rootes type supercharger just before the inlet manifold.

Is the Delta S4 like that or is it one with the "other" type of supercharger (centrafugal? you know the one that uses a big turbo compressor wheel) before the turbo, and the rest of the piping as on a normal turbo?

(Im guessing the rootes type as it sounds madder and they usually do)

Anyone got any decent engine bay pics or anything?

(And no, wouldnt even consider doing it to my car, ive made the thing less complicated and easier to work on, not harder, lol(

 

I remember I asked about this aggesssss ago....

Porkie said Martin had investigated this approach I think?

 

S4 is centrifugal I believe, SC'd low down, and had the turbo take over @ 4000rpm...

You might find something of interest on here too:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=48738

 

Well ive found quite a few pics of the S4 engine, but its impossible to see what type of s/c its using (which was the main thing i wanted to know) and how they have piped it, as its buried away under everything else...

I "THINK" by following the piping, that the turbo is first, then it goes thru an intercooler, then it blows thru the supercharger, then thru the second intercooler, then into the inlet.

VERY strange way the dumpvalve seems to vent tho, but im sure its the DV (my first thoughts were that it was the superchargers "wastegate" so to speak, and the boost pipes are done a different way to how i mention above, but its too close to the throttle to be that...)

(Id post the pics but it wont let me right click on em, and actually its well clever, they not even Jpeg images, theyve cleverly made them like desktop backgrounds so you cant rip the pics off....)

 

Would those be like the pics above Steve?

Plus, SC's work best at lower rev's (where a turbo wouldn't be spooling up yet) so makes more sence to 'drive' the turbo from the SC, not the other way around.

 

All very gay - superchargers are for homos

"funnier" things being tried closer to home

 

Err, not really

Think about it bill, turbos are driven by exhaust gas, the supercharger boosting gives the engine much more exhaust gas, which drives the turbo
Also im 99% sure it sucks its air from the turbo inlet rather than a seperate inlet (as a seperat inlet would require more fancy pipework shenanigans to stop the turbo boost blowing out the s/c inlet once it running higher boost than the s/c, and the other way round when the s/c is the one running higher boost), so still driving it the say you mentioned

And now im 99% sure the s/c worked on the S4 like the Powerengineering fiesta- Ie roots style charger inline, after the turbo, no fancy electromagnetic clutches and all that complicated bollocks like a lot of people have done since, it was done the easist way, and worked just fine.

I still dont know why they made an "exhaust" from the dumpvalve tho, thats a bit odd...

 

the boat we had in the med had turbo and supercharger. twin straight 6 diesel volvo engines with EDC.

 

Sorry, meant to type SC's work better (not best) than turbos low down.....

SC is driven off the crank, so has positive pressure much sooner than an exhaust driven turbo (i.e. straight away)...although see what your trying to say about exhaust gasses.....reckon I'm right and you're wrong

Agree with Martin too, drove a mates G60 and was totally underwhelmed, lol.

 

im right im right

heres another car with a supercharger+turbo running in the same way as the S4...
http://www.hilmersson-racing.com/start.asp?show=ec

the noooooooise

 

what about this....zetec in a focus.....turbo/supercharger and NOS

 

You are actually taking the wrong assumptions in your arguments dealing with the system including both supercharging and turbocharging on the Lancia delta s4. Neither one of the supercharger or the turbocharger totally "drives" the other one, this is a strange solution according to me, as one will always be restricting the other, unregarding in what order they are placed in the charging system. Easily proven that one too.

The supercharger on the s4 was an abarth construction based on the rooter-type of superchargers.

What the quite clever engineers at lancia/abarth did was too make two individual parallell pressure systems, one for the supercharger and one for the turbocharger, using the boost generated by the supercharger to help drive the turbocharger at really low boosts. The systems were linked together just before the intake-plenum via a special valve which controlled when, at what boost that is, too shut down the supercharger, leaving the engine as a "simple" turbocharged one. This valve was then controlled via the ECU. Other valves are also needed to perform this effectively, as information. Properly balanced and mapped, this created an engine characteristic which provided the optimal case of boost through the entire register of the engine. This is the optimal case of compound charging using a supercharger and a turbocharger, regarding performance.

The engine partly constructed by the native of mine, hilmersson, is roughly based on the same principle as described above...

 

And they sound feckin awsome

 

So has anyone got a diagram of how its all plumbed in on an S4? Its impossible to totaly see from all the enginebay pics ive seen.

Hexxon mentioned its a split system that meets just before the throttle...

Well look at the pics, the pipe between the the throttle and the 2nd intercooler is very short, and between the various pics you can see it from all sides and all thats fitted to it is a dump valve (with a very long tube exit which vents by the screamer pipe for some reason ), no special valve that switched between the 2

Hence why it always seemed to me it went filter-turbo-intercooler1-supercharger-intercooler2-throttle, as that how all the piping in the pics make it look

 

What i mentioned was the logical layout of the system, not the actual plumbing, a big difference there
The valve which you points out as the dump valve is one of the valves Im talking about. This puts the boost from the supercharger into the inlet of the turbo when the throttle is off. Actually a standard closed loop dump valve...

The main valve i depicted isnt viewable, as it is included in the supercharger. When a certain boost-level is reached, the inlet gases is taking a alternative route inside the supercharger. In this route, the supercharger itself doesnt affect the boost.

Very interesting system this actually.

 

No mate, that valve im on about (the only one before the throttle) vents into the atmosphere just above the wastegate, can see it in the pics...




Pipe comes off between the 2nd intercooler and the throttle, a few inches along there is the dumpvalve, and then the pipe off it travels back along the left of the enginebay and exits in the slash cut pipe above the wastegate

 

bloody hell that looks complicated!

 

this is the best i can do steve,, i havent got a scanner here so i tried to photo it

 

I thought the Power Engineering Fiesta did it the opposite way to what you say Steve, I have the Classic Ford article on it somewhere (it was the A-Z tuning guide where they combined "S" and "T" by using Chris's car as an example )

I thought he had the supercharger blowing through the turbo (and thus spinning it up) and then an extra throttle body operated by rpm activated switch opening the turbo up to atmosphere as otherwise the engine power was limited by the air flow through the supercharger, which was less than the flow through the turbo on boost - if that makes any sense

Oh, a chap called Stu over at my home forum has done it quite successfully with an old boat anchor jellymould tortoise shaped shed btw

http://forums.interford.co.uk/showth...threadid=24991
http://forums.interford.co.uk/showth...threadid=10463

 

I just reread your post and realised i read it wrong the first time

 

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

EXACTLY the pic i was after

And it shows what i was saying about how it works om an S4 is EXACTLY right (special diverter valves my arse )

Filer-intercooler-supercharger-intercooler2-throttle

What i said was a dumpvalve IS a dumpvalve, just on the factory diagram its plumbed back into the piping like factory cars are, on the race car in the pics its vented to atmo like i said

And also a for the people saying other things

 

Look at the supercharger dear mr Arsewipe Can you see the air taking different routes there? Special diverter valves, YEAH BABY!

EDIT: ALSO, look at the dump valve return, where is it? Before the turbo inlet no? Im afraid so...

 

Dont call me an arsewipe sweede Now i look again, you half right n half wrong...

The diagram shows, i think, that a diverter valve opens to pass air past the s/c once the turbo is blowing hard for no restiction, but thats not really what you said in the first place is it

And the diagram shows the DV being routed back into the pipes, but look at the REAL RACE CAR in the pics, that DV is vented to atmo so

 

Sorry for the arse tissue issue You seemed well over confident there at once...
Sweden is a nice country, eh? Because here i have had the pleasure of sitting in one of these cars, the S4, looking at the hardware up close. The way I have explained it is the way that Abarth meant it to be.

The diagram actually shows what im saying there... The valve opens at a certain boost so that the supercharger wont be straining the turbo at higher boosts.

The "RACE CAR" as you describes it aint that much racing anymore according to me, as he just made turbo-lag worse for himself.

 

double post.

 

I still say the SC provides low rev's boost, and the turbo takes over at higher rev's.

I think there's some misunderstanding on this thread, lol. When I said the SC 'drives' the turbo, I was only referring to your theory in the previous post, not saying the SC actually drives the turbo on the S4.

 

No no no no no

Look at how the DUMPVALVE Is plumbed in after the 2nd intercooler...

When its open the air flows back to the pipe BEFORE the turbo, ie the filter to turbo pipe, JUST like on all factory DV's (inc cossies!) and any aftermarket recirc setup...

And what happens when these setups get stuck open for some reason or other? Yup! No Boost! So its not anything but a DV, hence why its vented to atmo, as it makes no bloody difference as its just a BOV, lol

The valve bypassing the s/c seems valid tho. Does it "switch off" the supercharger using an electromagnetic clutch or does the supercharger always run too, and the bypass valve around it just open to minimise restriction?

ROFL@AssTissueIssue And yes, Sweeden is lovely, you have Sweedish women there

 

Haha! I was thinking way wrong there. It is a simple recirculating dv... Got it explained by a renowned engine builder here in sweden though... And thought it sounded reasonable enough. Hmmpf, boring, i wouldnt have built it that way. Stupid Abarth

If those setups get stuck? No, they shouldnt be. If they are, the builders of that valve are plain comic actors.

The valve is a bypass, which opens a "clear route" for the turbo charger, as can be seen on the picture actually

Yeah, our women sure is a tidy bunch...

 

glad you like steve,, i have got a write up aswell,,, but cant be arsed to type it in

 

Here's a clearer version of Gareth's pic.

 

it used a roots type Volumex sc. if u thinkin of tryin it will b mega expensive and complex try twin turbo

 

Bring back grp B !!

 

why twin turbo? or do you mean sequential twin turbo?

if so thats far more complicated and expensive

 

A twin turbo engine puts far more complicated demands on the hardware than a compound charging, using supercharger-turbocharger, does. On a straight six such as the rb26det it will be fairly complicated in first place, due to the balance in volume that needs to be, considering both exhaust manifold piping, but also the pressure pipes need to be of exact characteristic. Besides this, the turbochargers must be of exact specifications as well as wastegates.

I am currently performing the design of the hardware architecture of a conversion such as this, to be carried out on a Cadillac STS 32-valve all aluminium V8-machine. Not a simple task i must tell you...