joffy

iTrader: (1)

if you were to build the ultimate engine based for instance on a YB, with the advances in CNC machines etc, is there any reason why a engine cannot be built with the 'block' and 'head' all made out of a single piece of metal, this would then get rid of the head gasket completely?? there is probably a very simple answer that im missing something but just thought id throw it out there

timrud

How would you rebuild the engine??

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Old F1 engines had a one-piece block/head, didn't they?

mechanic28

iTrader: (5)

i see ya point fella as it would all be made out of the same metal with regards to heat expension etc but i feel it would be not possiable due to the different tempertures in different areas you simple need give somewhere to allow heat expension,retraction that place is the headgasket or it would crack somewhere!at least this is how i understand it?

Twellsie

iTrader: (1)

technically i would say you could, but i would be a right bastard to work on and cost a fortune to manufacture

rickbartlett

how wud u change valves etc if it was sealed

westus1

iTrader: (6)

probably could be done
but as with everything thats mass produced
its built to a budget and wouldn't be cost effective
makes more sense to have a head gasket so the engine can be opened up

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Was done many many years ago and is still done today. Its known as MONOBLOCK IIRC.

SteveH

Slighty off topic (ish), but I was at pod a few weeks back and there was a couple of retired tool makers with a home made compund turbocharged bike that had no headgasket or valve seats, had a very interesting conversation with him about how he did it, what materials etc.

Didnt realise such a thing as the monoblock existed

mrjenrst

Yeah seen pic's of that and i still cant get my head round it.

I'd imagine the only down side would be production cost's and the fact it would be a cock to work on.

Azrael

There are quite many monoblocks out there, not on road car of course, but I suppose some road going bikes may have them. You can run normal engine without headgasket too.

joffy

iTrader: (1)

well there you go, im not as stupid as i thought, i thought it would be bloody expensive and a 'cock to work on' but i suppose if its and f1 engine then reliable power is all they are really after??

mrjenrst

i used to have a few photo's of it but cant find them

But thinking about it, in reality if the engine is going to be re-built after every outing ie f1 and the like. Then surely it would be a lot stronger?
And possibly be used more to be abused as you are taking a weak spot in the engine like the head gasket and removing the weakness?

Not sure though, food for thought.

RickyLee53

Would be ok in a race car, but no good for a road car IMO.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Early porche 911 turbos run no head gasket.

Monoblock's were popular in F1 for a while, you have to assemble them from underneath, valves in first then follow them up with the pistons.

Your concept of "based on a YB" isnt a good one though, in what way would it be based on a YB? Do you mean you would copy the antique and crude 16v cylinder head? If so, bad idea IMHO

joffy

iTrader: (1)

i wasnt gonna build one (havent got the time at the minute) i was just using it as an example as this is(was) a ford based website, could you make an engine that would be identical to the YB (or any other engine you choose) but of a single block and therefore getting rid of any head gasket issues, (as YB's are notorious for head gasket problems lol)

Chip

iTrader: (3)

No, you couldnt, the design of the block would need to be significantly different at the bottom to allow the pistons to be fed up, and also a direct copy in aluminium would be too weak.

Some of the machining would be impossible too to replicate the water ways and oilways etc in a monoblock, it would have to be a new design.

bud-weis

I've seen touring car engines ( YB ) that run no head gasket, not sure how this set up would last long term at high power...but it lasted a full race at 500bhp no problem

Azrael

Our Autosportif-build 530bhp endurance racing Subaru runs no headgaskets.

joffy

iTrader: (1)

but is that a head still a head and block design?? surely with a mono block you can lose the weakness in the block made by the the need for head bolts etc as no drilling of the block will be needed, dont get me wrong im not gonna build one (havent got the time at the minute) but was just interested if there was a significant advantage you could gain from making it a single piece

Azrael

Probably there is, but it is complicated as hell, and it's not like headgasket is THE PROBLEM in other engines then YB In fact I have never seen headgasket failure in 2.0 litre Subaru (be it big power or not) that wasn't overheated due to cooling falure. It probably happens but it's not THE weakness. Same about big powered Mitsubishies. With ARP's the headgaskets hold and hold.... Purpose designed race engines may be other story but then hit's not my worry luckily

Chip

iTrader: (3)

There are advantages if you are going REALLY crazy with tuning on super hot fuels, not on normal fuels though where a headgasket arrangement is fine typically if well implemented.

On normal fuel, you just dont get the cylinder pressures to need to run no head gasket in the first place.

Phil

iTrader: (1)

I'm just impressed that you see 'lack of time' as the only obstacle to you designing, casting and machining your own one off engine design!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Azrael

Chip: what do you mean by normal fuel? Is FIA approved Elf Turbo-Rallye normal?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes mate, 102 ron is about as hot as i still consider it to be "normal" I suppose.

Although I was more thinking of road cars and optimax, but same applies to the FIA approved stuff.

Azrael

I was more thinking about the stuff rallycross boys sometimes use, I think it's 110 or 112, it's used by drag-racers often too. I think they may have stopped using it 1-2 years ago because it was leaded fuel i think..

RickyLee53

As his sig says, it would take him ages to learn,

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thats the sort of fuel where a strong headgasket arrangement (such as designed to run no gasket) DOES start being useful potentially IMHO

joffy

iTrader: (1)

if i had the time i wouldnt let the lack of money knowledge equipment and design abilities to hold me back from having a go lol, just thought of it the other day and wondered if it had been done and was it worth it?? if you keep the coventional design of a head and block then lose the head gasket do you just machine the faces flat or are there other things involved??

Chip

iTrader: (3)

For what use?

If its for road use, you cant have water in the mating face between the head and block if you go this way really, would be majorly asking for trouble.

Its also a bad idea on different metals like a YB iron block and ally head.

mechanic28

iTrader: (5)

shows what i know!i thought when of the main functions of a headgasket was to create a area to allow the the different rate of expansion (sp) etc of the head and block specially when the block is cast steel and the head is aluminuim