Mike,

Have you driven a car with comp struts and no arb either on the road or on track to compare the differences?

No one in motorsport would stick their neck out to give you an answer as really its never really been done and tested...

I suspect the arrangement above, although it looks very well engineered is a little over kill. The fixings and drop links on the motorsport items are only M6 x 1 so offer little structral stength, they merely transfer through the links, blades and bar themselves.....

I suspect if you were to independently test your requirment Mike, the level of anti-roll you'd need would be a lot less than you imagine....even without overally hard springs.....

Ian

 

Ian,
Ahmed has already advised me that the front ARB could do with being softer, hence why I want to try a bladed one that can be softened off, but no-one can give me even a rough starting point of saying this bladed one is equivalent to the standard one on position X .

I even have the Grp A cross-member, so the ARB is all I need . Can you point me in the right direction as in which bladed ARB would be a good starting point, as when I ask anyone who you would expect to know, they just shrug ?

 

What sizes of Grp.A one are availble?

 

There were many roll bars made and tested, the customer spec literature produced gave 3 for the grp'a' car and two for the WRC...

I'd say the rigidity of the shell would also be a deciding factor in the overall selection, is your car seam welded mike and do you run a cage.....

Given that there are manufacturer requirements as well as race chassis enhancement figures, it would still be very subjective....

The figures quoted by the like of boreham suggest a 20,000 bar for tar and a 5,000 bar for gravel.....given road car for torsional stiffness being in the order of [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']4 Nm/deg/kg and your car weighing lets say 1250 kg you'd be looking at the very least a 5000 bar.....20,000 would be way too stiff IMO....[/FONT]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I am working on the assumption that the figure Boreham gives is in nm/deg/kg.......[/FONT]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']That said I also talked to one of my pals, who is rather a suspention guru and he commented that the advances in suspension technology have allowed the teams to dial out a lot of roll in the suspension units themselves.....that said the subaru and focus still retain one on both gravel and tar....[/FONT]

ian

 

Hi Ian,
For your information, you would need to base your calculations on around 1500kg with driver / passenger.

It has no cage and is not seam welded, but features front strut brace and the Adrenaline chassis strengthening rails (similar to the Grp A build manual).

I have Ohlins 2-way suspension to go on the car and at the moment this has equivalent to 380lb springs front and rear (although this differs somewhat to what I am used to, as the spring lengths are different front to rear, which gives different rates and I have yet to see how this drives on the road, as they aren't fitted at present). I can give you the exact rates if this helps, as they are in kg per mm of deflection?

Any help or ideas you can throw my way would be greatly appreciated.

 

For a daily driver car which occasionally should be used on track i really see no other option than running with a arb.
Reason is you can go with softer springs/dampers as the opposite dampers will help against bodyroll in a turn.
Also when you can run softer dampers/springs you will suppress the bumps in the road better.
I dont know how it is in the uk, but the tracks in norway are quite bumpy which means that a full on race setting with no arb (meaning really tuff spring/damper ratios) will prolly throw you off the track.
Maybe for a really experienced driver no arb is the trick, but i really dont think so.

For gravel use you can do without the rollbar as you really want independtent suspension to give more traction/grip on the bumpy surface.

 

That said, all the modern rallycars still retain them on gravel, even if it's thin ARB homologated for grp.N gravel spec.

 

Yes, but again they have 20-30 grand dampers which probably have some benefits, regular dampers dont have (even dynamics, ohlins and proflex)

 

They cartainly do, I know Ohlins group N dampers and they are as far from tuning suspensions as let's say Tein Monoflex is from standard Sierra 2.0 GL

But the car still needs it's anti-roll bars and on more grippy stages it will roll a bit.

By the way I would reccomend a drive in well sorted grp.N mitsubishi or Subaru to anyone who thinks he has good suspension setup It's a bit shocking over very bumpy surfaces. I know that there are some poeple on this thread who have expeirence of Grp.A and world rally cars but most mortal usually don't And still there was some progress in the damper world in last years.

 

Good work.


i was/still am playing with a similar idea of doing that sort of setup, to give be the advartage of both worlds.
But i was also looking at doing with some sort of adjustment on the ARB as well.




Also, back on the tread topic, No one's mentioned about 2wd/4wd or tyres being used will all change the outcome.

 

i didnt see this reply Mike, but, when we are talking about my cars with a setup i like, one thing i hate is having to chew chewing gum whenever im in the rally car to stop my bottom jaw from chattering !

for how long it takes, if i was you, i would remove your bar, fit comp struts and actually try it insted of listening to people.

it may suit your NON RALLY car to the ground

in one breath you keep telling me your car is a road car and occasional track car, then in the other your telling me your speaking to motorsport people for recomendations - make your mind up pal

 

Mark,
I'm speaking to motorsport people in the hope that they can advise me of which bladed ARB is similar to a standard item, but no-one seems to know (or be willing to tell me ). I know (from speaking to Ahmed), that the ARB can be softened on the front of an Escort without having a detrimental effect, but I just want a close starting point that is all . If I have one that is equivalent to the standard one in it's mid setting, I have the option of going either softer or harder to see the effects this has. It's the starting point I am lacking .

 

here i was going to get a compression kit onmy saff but are they really that terrible for road. ill be doing a lot of track days but using on the road to geto shows etc

 

my comp struts work fine i even think its better then the roll bar, found that the braking is better ie dont go form side to side under hard braking , and corners better

 

good luck.

try them, you may(will) be surprised.

praise the lord - fancy that actually working !

 

markk you taking the piss or have you got them on your car and find they work to

 

mate, i have used comp struts for over 10 yesr on my rally cars and have never had any roll bars, and at no pint have i ever wanted to put one on, the turn in and stability is so much better on the std setup without the std arb.

 

I have them fitted to my Escos, not driven it yet but I am looking forward to trying it out. If it feels too sloppy (which I doubt running gravel spec billies, think the front springs are 450Lbs, have to check) I have a Group A bladed ARB to stick on, with the mini-front mounted subframe

 

Whilst everyone is faffing about worrying about what goes on up front what do they generally do to the rear ?

 

Tony, back end of my Escos has Billie 909 mag dampers (Gravel spec, 280ish Lbs springs) Danny B 6° rear beam, solid beam mounts, a poly rear diff hanger and a 7.5" rear diff.

Front end is Bille 909 dampers, (gravels again, 450ish Lbs springs I think) Your adjustable TCA's , your comp struts, solid concentric bushed top mounts and a group A bladed ARB kit to fit if needed.

Hoping it will handle , has cost almost as much as the fookin engine to get all that kit on it

 

thats just what they're doing tony,...............................worrying about it

 

So no ARB Wil ?

OMG wont it send you off wobbling uncontrollably down the track like most seem to think

Thats the type of set-up that people like Mike Little etc used to run the works cars on so you should be able to get something out of it.

 

the ARB was left off on your advice , so if it is shit you will get the blame , but to be honest the dampers even on gravel settings will be quite stiff anyway for the road, and the ARB can go on after if needed. Would you reccomend fitting it using clamps on the TCA's or using a drop link either on a boss or taken from the comp strut location bolt?

 

NO ARB :shoc ked:: shocked::shock ed::s hocked::shocke d::sh ocked::shocked ::sho cked: :shoc ked:: shocked::shock ed::s hocked::shocke d::sh ocked::shocked :
:shoc ked:: shocked::shock ed::s hocked::shocke d::sh ocked::shocked ::sho cked: :shoc ked:: shocked:

sorry couldnt ressist

 

Will,
I would "imagine" you will be okay, but as to ride quality, you are running 100lb harder springs than me . On my Sapphire I found even 400lb springs too hard for the road (fine on A-roads / motorway), but too stiff on bumpy B-roads.

So when you get your car up and running, I would be VERY interested in hearing how you got on .

In the meantime, regarding the comments about the rear ARB, I know that mine needs stiffening up, but I want to get the front sorted first (so I know where I'm at with what I want to do with the rear). For information, the from uses a roll bar stiffness of 614656 (28mm) and the rear 234256 (22mm), so if anyone has any figures for the bladed ones?

 

Mike, you will be more than welcome to have a drive and see how you like it

 

Mike,

I'm sure you'll have had your car corner weighted, can you let me know what results you got, that would be a better starting position for determining the level of ARB you'd be best employing, and does your car suffer with under or over steer on track? or is it nice and planted?

Ian

 

can i say i never fitted my compression struts and sold as rainbird told me to use a bladed roll bar with them and never had the guts to try

 

I can't find my figures anywhere (it was 6 years ago they were done ), but luckily I have a good memory, it was a 55/45 front biased weight distribution and pretty even side to side with a few % more on the offside than nearside (without driver). Obviously this means that one-up it is imbalanced towards the offside, but normally I have a passenger (and being a little 75kg runt, they are normally heavier than me to help balance things up). HOWEVER, this is probaly different now, as I have added more weight to the front in the form of bigger brakes and heavier cooling system, so I would imagine that the distribution is even more front biased now.

The car is set up so it is very neutral (how I like it). If you go in to a corner too fast, it will understeer, but a brief lift of the throttle tucks the nose in. Also in slower corners, you can edge the rear out . It's just completely predictable with no nasty traits .

 

Jay,
I NEVER tell anyone what to do, I just give my "opinion" on something as do everyone else, it's just up to you to then make a decision based on that . So don't swing the blame my way because you're yella .

 

you did you threatened to bum me if i fitted them with out the bladed roll bar plus you said it would handle badly ! i feel let down now this is terrible im loosing the will to live at this point , i thik you need to phone tony and order me some more you tart

 

LOL at YOU being SCARED of me . Puffs chest out and raises self to full 5'8" - "Yeah, you better watch your step before I come over and bitch slap ya" .

 

PMSL at the thought of mike bitch slapping jay LOL

 

sshhhhh

i am just humble man that has been swindled into believing a well respected trader on this site ! why is this aloud to happen as i am new to this suspension setting thing i feel i have been deeply let down


















































mike u dont need to read this its not really important



gareth do you think this is working into getting mike guilty into buying me another set as complaing about things like this on such a site will have gains i here ? and tbh does he think i would listen to a cunt that puts gold wheels on a car like that ffs

 

Jay,
You have more chance of you sprouting wings and flying!

 

mike little!!!!!!!!!

LOL.worst example you could possibly use!!and has it been paid for!!
the only reason mlp would not have run the arb's was probly because they had sold them behind the owners back.

ah the bad old good old days.