Luca

iTrader: (2)

With the problems of a cramped engine bay ad the spec of the new engine far exceeding the space in the engine bay.

Im know resorting to chucking the rad in the boot, this is not going to be as easy as i first thought as air flow is cruical.
As much as i can get in is obviously the main plan of action but more imporatantly is getting the hot air out and a continual cycle of fresh air.

Has anyone any pictures of either the Doran cars or some norweigan cars that run boot mounted rads please.

I wish i had of thought of this sooner as Ford Fair would have been the perfect place to to ask some questions etc.

Pictures please of Boots rads and pipes.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

ANy pics of Pat or Liam Dorans cars from the weekend....

pictures of the boot / raditors welcome here

cheers all...

JTECH James

iTrader: (13)

this is a interesting thread imo!

i bet it would lower the engine bar temp a fair bit getting rid of the rad from the front, and also lower the act

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Cheers for your support mate, ive finally decided to go for a big power zetec turbo in the car and with running such a big turbo for a fiesta shell the rad has to go in the back with the shopping

Im not to phased with the idea - as its a track car theres no real concerns with making it do able.

Just need some help and guidence from peeps if they have any pics or know of anyone that can advise.

Is the rad laying horizontly , vertically, diagonally, half in boot half underneath..... Options are enedless.

If anyone has a pic or two id be ever so grateful

CliffRS4

iTrader: (1)

Pm Cpt Scarlett on here as he had this done on his S1 as him and his dad did it themselves

Markb_s1

quite a few norwegian/swedish mk1 and mk2 escorts run the rad in the boot. no idea why... will have a look for some pics..

Bomber

I'm right slap bang in doing this to mine.

Bascially you need to create some sort of flow to the rad, through the rad and out of the car.

I have got Naca ducts in the rear side windows (i posted a pic in your other thread), these then feed the radiator (which is boxed in) then the air goes through the rad - and out of a vent in the floor. The trick is to create a windage tray under the car which scoops air up and flows it across the vent in the floor and 'sucks' the hot air out/pulls cold in air from the ducts creating a venturi effect.

Obviously you'll need to take the thermostat out - add an EWP and electric EWP controller, associated plumbing, a header tank in the back and a swirl pot.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Glad you mentioned the header ,pump and swirlpot details as i had not thought about these yet....

AlexF

If you take the stat out the engine will never hold a sensible temp!

GARETH T

a boot mounted rad is something that would be very hard to engineer correctly! i don't know enough about aerodynamics to comment truthfully! but to get the airflow needed AND still have a dynamically stable car is going to be a mission

AlexF

As I have a fair bit of experience with engine cooling design I thought I'd add a few more words…. Particularly as I am about to run a rear mounted rad in one of my old Minis to keep the 2 litre 16v turbo lump in the front cool

Rear mounting a rad is exactly the same process as if you have a rear mounted engine - just the other way round!! So this is nothing new as Lotus, Porsche and even Rover/MG (MGF) have been doing this for years. The only added issue you face is sorting out enough air flow through the rad.

You probably do not need an electric water pump - a std K-series pump can move 10 litre of water round a cooling system adequately for a standard production car - i.e. there is no way it should over heat on the road.

You CERTAINLY need to keep the stat or you will never get the coolant up to temp - which would leave you running rich (cold start) for ages. The engine will also not make good power if it is either over cooled or under cooled.

From previous experience, NASCAR ducts in the rear screen simply do not offer enough air flow to the rad - although as said by Bomber, getting the air to the rad is only half of the problem, you must consider how it is going to escape. Air flow under a car is complex and if you try and push the air into a zone of high pressure it simply won't flow as you wish.


The best way to go about this is to build yourself a setup and test it - Infrared temp guns are fairly cheap and very good to visualise what the temps are. Thermocouples can easily be stuck into the end of a rubber pipe to see what the water temps are doing!

Hope that’s of some use!

Alex

GARETH T

worst bit of advice EVER

a stat is there to CONTROL the coolant temperature! and accurate cylinder head temperatures are critical

Markb_s1

i'd have thought you'd be better off bringing the air up through the boot floor, through the rad and then out the rear panel... perhaps that way it could also be used to create some kind of venturi effect?

Bomber

http://www.daviescraig.com.au/docume...0_Brochure.pdf

Quote:

"1. With EWPŽ ‘smart’ Controller (Recommended method)

... This option requires the removal of the thermostat and either the mechanical pump impeller from the pump shaft, or bypass the water pump pulley from the belt set-up, using a shorter belt."

So this is not correct?

AlexF

Arr I see what your saying now....

You can take the rad out if your going to run an active (ie computer controlled) water pump. You don't need to as such, but the point they are making is that you can use the pump for coolant temp control.


Either way - you do not need a EWP a std one will work.

GARETH T

nar sorry,, i jumped to a conclusion once seen "remove the stat" if you are running a smart pump controller, it should be fine to do so

AlexF

The area behind the boot is normally low pressure - hence the dirt being sucked from the exh onto the back of the car...

Getting air to move into this area should be possible - but you might struglle getting it away.

I know a guy who runs a rear rad mounted on his boot (its a mini of course) and it just about works, but isnt great.

Alex

Bomber

Running a Controller allows you to set what temp you want the coolant system. Ideal if you intend on doing track days, round town driving etc etc. You can even adjust the water temp to what conditions you are driving in: ie: cooler for summer/high ambient temps, warmer for winter/low ambient temps to get the best performance from the engine.

There is no substitute for adjustability.

Markb_s1

what i was thinking is kind of something like this (not the best pic, i know!) ... but rather than having the air exit beneath the car, run it up into to bottom of the boot floor, through the rad and out lo lower part of the rear panel.. probably round about where the number plate would be


(obviously ignore ther exhaust exiting there at the moment!)
was just an idea, as i knwo pretty much nothing about aerodynamics etc)

Bomber

Also - before people start chopping out their boot floors - you need to make sure that any modifications you make are outside a 30cm radius from a structural part of the chasis (what points these are are dependent on your specific car). Otherwise it will fail an MOT.

Markb_s1

that's an interesting idea... although how do you explain retro Al having an alloy boot floor (that's removeable and leaves a massive hole) or that my turrets are chopped into the chassis rails? or that the rails on both our cars and the one above have been notched to allow an extra inch or two of suspension travel when running at really low ride heights?

i think it's just if it's corrosion that that rule comes in to play, not if it's a deliberate modification and safely/properly done...

GARETH T

it's all well and good IF people know what they are adjusting

StephenC

ive been thinking about this for along time also. my thought was to somehow bring the air in through the rear windows (probably a larger duct than the NACA style ones) then onto the rad, for the air to exit I was going to modify the rear light clusters (maybe drilling them to death with loads of 10mm holes or removing the majority of the lense completely) either side. The rad obviously pretty much enclosed in a carbon/fibreglass shroud so any air that is brought in throught the vents goes over the rad. Then some serious big ass fans behind to force air flow should the car be sat still, as its not in the engine bay and there is plenty of room some big fans shouldnt be a problem. How these would effect air flow in normal driving im not sure but considering all our rads now currently have a fan and intercooler right in front of them I wouldnt think it too much of a restriction? As long as the cut outs in the lights could flow as much as the window inlets flow I reckoned on it been a reasonable system and not too permanent like cutting holes in the boot floor that might not work. Just my 2p worth and im in no way an air flow engineer nor a cooling engineer so its probably riddled with flaws.

Markb_s1

i think the last mk2 i saw with this mod had huge cut outs in the boot lid and was meshed over... black one from norway/sweden or somewhere... recently been repained with silver too. there was a post about it either on here or turbosport the other day but i haven't found it yet...

Bomber

I'm pretty sure that it also covers any deliberate modification. He may have a sympathetic MOT tester (if such a person exists!).

Here is a transcript of the MOT guide:

6.1 Vehicle Structure, Body Security and Condition

Body Security

This part of the examination applies to vehicles with separate bodies.

Method of inspection
2. Examine the following items for presence, security, fracture, distortion,
excessive wear or damage
a. all fixings (eg brackets) securing the body and its supporting members to the chassis
b. all fixings (eg brackets) securing the body to a sub-frame or supporting members, and all securing bolts, rivets or welds for all the above
fixings.

Reason for rejection
2.
a. Excessive displacement of the body relative to the chassis which might lead to loss of control of the vehicle when driven
b. insecurity of the body or its
supporting members to the chassis so that it is clear that there would be a danger to other road users.
3. Any deliberate modification, excessive corrosion, damage, cracks or inadequate repair of a load bearing body or chassis member which seriously affects its strength within 30 cm of the body mountings.

GARETH T

how much airflow do you think the rad needs?

remember that air flows from high pressure to low pressure areas

Markb_s1

i guess the argue would be that the boot floor isn't loadbearing?
dunno... but having thought about it you've also got cars where the whole slam panel has been removed and replaces with just a metal bar.

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Guys im liking your comments and views the more the better , i have contacted Pat Doran to see if he can shed any light on this factor, but would like to see some of the norweigan mk2 escorts i remeber a black one a few years back with a silver meshed rear panel, which was boot mounted rad.

The advantage i hope from running it in the back is due to it being sat around on its own , i.e no turbo to heat it up.... the temps should not be to high to moderate and keep down.

With two large fans helping too , but question number 2123 would the fans be better to push fresh air through or pull hot air out.

Bomber

The boot floor isn't load bearing - but the rear tubs are and anywhere within 30cm of a suspension mount will be too (not too clued up on RWD cars so i'm not 100% sure how far away the leaf spring seats are from the boot floor or whether any part to do with the axle is considered structural).

The idea of ducts in the side windows is perhaps the wrong terminology - if you use a scoop under the car to draw air up and across the vented floor (to which the radiator is positioned) the air is 'sucked' in from the ducts rather than forced in and over the radiator.

Theres a lot to it and there will be a fair amount of trial and error involved.

Markb_s1

gor another one.. deliberate modification within 30 cm of a load bearing member...
weld on strut braces?
I'm sure there must be some other rule involved here... anyway, back to boot mounted rads

I'm still curious if you'd be better drawing air from uder the car and out like the rear, in through the sides and out through underneath/bootlid or rear panel.. there must be some kind of expert on here who could explain which one of these options would require minimal assistance from a fan?

Bomber

I have no idea

Markb_s1

lol... me neither!

i'd be looking to get whichever fan configuration was best to do as little work as possible and gain as much from redirecting airflow when moving, then you can save the fans for when you need them in traffic

Bomber

I've seen that Black Norweigen Mk2 Esc you mentioned - was in Perf Ford a while back. That used a windage tray to scoop air up from underneath the car and out through the rear number plate panel.

Bomber

No fail - as it does not substantially affect the structural integrity of the vehicle. Your adding strength, not removing it.

Markb_s1

that's the one.. lovely car. I have a feeling the jenspeed mk1 has a similar setup too.. will try to find some evidence..

Markb_s1

not the best photo but...
[/img]

deffo looks like a mesh bootlid again..

Bomber

Very nice!

GARETH T

i think the only way you can do it,,, is trial and error

buy a cheap second hand car of the same type, cut what you want out, and go out and test with flow meters

i think some of you are going to be surprised at to how little flow you get to move through your rad

Markb_s1

could well be right gareth.. either that or have a really good close look at some of these cars.

i won't be doing it personally though as i've now got an extra 4 inches or so in front of the engine

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

better to have the engine in the back and the radiator in the front along with the shopping