Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Stu,
Seriously, I think that would be a good idea, just so the lag misnoma didn't get perpetuated, because you are so respected, people will just take what you say as gospel .

Now that we have got THAT out of the way . How do you use ALS to change the boost threshold (if you do) : ?

jbrayley

Now that is a decent question. Mike maybe your better off starting a new thread with that in the title and deleting this one

Disabled Account

Mike, I recall reading in Motoring News a few years back that compressed air being stored in rally car roll cages, and used to try and solve this problem - was soon banned on saftey grounds.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Oops, havent read them, been too busy, i tend to just pick them off here and there when i have 20 mins, as i never have less than 30 to read, so "You have new message" doesnt excite me into opening my PM box as much as it may most users. Appologies.

AlexF

LOL!!!

Well I think this is a cracking thread!!!

ITs got ups and downs as well as informational content - its a real infotainment special!!



Alex

PS My understand was exactly the same as chips - extra inital flows helps even when you lift off

Si B

iTrader: (59)

Be very hard to talk about Solutions to turbo questions etc if you're not an expert wouldn't you think? On a site like this, one wrong statement and someone with greater knowledge is likely to pick up on it.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes its coming up with the Turbo Solutions here in the G.B without sounding like a clueless pizza boy thats the problem

dojj

iTrader: (3)

do air injectors have anything to do with this or is that another subject totaly?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

utterly nothing at all.

thank you, come again please

Si B

iTrader: (59)

indeed!

pete mcrash

iTrader: (1)

ffs...............just have a do..!!!.....................at least the thread hasnt been "vanished" .....which suprises me....... ....p.s mike was right......in the detail............u luv each other really..........

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Yep, twice a night - don't get jealous .

pete mcrash

iTrader: (1)

.....pics or stfu..............

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

I haven't got stills, just video footage .

pete mcrash

iTrader: (1)

....ur just trying to crawl back in his good books now.................be carefull..........or "YA BARRED"........................ .............

dojj

iTrader: (3)

so what do they do then?
i thought they were there to control the wastegate and keep it open/closed at certain points?
so doesn't that fall into the same sort of ball park?

if not i'll go and make another post somewhere

Billabong

They control boost via the wastegate - they cannot generate boost, it has to be there to start with.

https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157765

Redkop

When I got Autronic SM4 fitted to my car with ALS, I didn't know how the hell ALS worked, all I knew was it popped and banged and threw out flames, but that was it. So I looked on the Autronic site at their data filesHERE and also on WIKIPEDIA to get a basic understanding of it. Whether any of it relates to what either Mike or Stu are discussing, is another matter though.... but it gave me a basic insight to it.

markk

iTrader: (2)

Mike, over the years you have chatted on about ALS, and i 'thought' maybe you knew what it does and how to have it setup, now i realise you think you know what it does, you have no experiance of it whatso ever, and have not seen a properly set up ALS.

I have used it, in many forms, compared back to back on the same car (T34) with and without, with varying air flows,
We spend hours and hours into the early mornings perfecting a very very effective ALS at MSD for a long time. the mods were made then tested - ON A STAGE RALLY. not in the road, not on a test track but where it was designed to be used. the advantages where massive.

what we did find on the adventures where that you need massively various amounts of air flow for differant effect and lag reduction.

the last version we had on my old car, was a two stage affair, the first being the std modded valve mountune type thingy, now i must say here that your engine design/spec will affect what sort of air flow you achieve here - so dont go comparing valve to valve saying you have less boost, the results where great in gear hot turbine ( please note ALS needs a very hot exhaust system to be effective), but under hard launch/quick throttle standing starts the pluses were minimal.
the second version/stage made a huge differance to a low energy situation, i.e stood still, and also increased off-on-throttle in mega proportions.
we have some other duty cycled versions in the pipeline for auxillery air to be more controlled across differant valves under differing conditions and setups which will also work with launch strategies and flat gearshifts, but that will all have to wait for my new car to be built .

from what you have written it sounds as though you have'nt enough auxillery airflow for a T3, never mind a T4.

get it setup properly pal

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Mark,
You're absolutely right, I have no experience with ALS on a small turbo. However, we can switch that round - YOU have absolutely NO experience of ALS on a LARGE turbo. Until YOU have, then you can hardly comment about it's affects on one that requires HUGE amounts of energy to over-come it's inertia. I personally am beginning to think that it makes a big difference in operation depending on the amount of inertia required to overcome the turbo .

It would be VERY interesting to hear about how Stu and Steve find my old T4 and what they have been able to achieve with that .

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

When explaining the operation of als the air injector strategy would not normally be discussed ,when infact they would have an affect on boost if the activation point was wrong and not mapped at the the corrrect point for the turbo and boost threshold point of the whole engine package.
So I would say chip is wrong and dojj is right

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

Instead of 4 pages of arguing mike you could have said this in the first place in a far more diplomatic manner IMO you thought you would try to be a clever dick and it appears you have made yourself look a dick ROFLOL

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Tony,
Cool post .

I see what you're saying and obviously on a big turbo, the air injectors would be mapped to hold the wastegate full shut at low rpm to help bring the boost in ASAP, so ALS would not be affected.

However, on a small turbo which can develop lots of boost quite early and may need the wastegate to be used to control the amount the engine has at low rpm, how would that affect the ALS?

Would the wastegate control need changing over to a different set up when ALS was activated on a small turbo (to avoid the boost generated by the ALS being bled off)?

I never even considered this until you pointed it out .

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Looking one and being one are two different things .

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Mike, apparently its fact that "you are what you eat"
So I cant see ANYONE arguing that you arent a dick

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Mike, that really does read like you are a retard.

Tony has experience of a correctly sized valve for a small turbo, from which he is inferring what would happen on a correctly sized valve on a larger turbo, thats a perfectly reasonable step to take.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Yep, you're certainly living proof of that .

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

It doesn't stack up . I know of one other T4 car with ALS that has TWICE the air bypass capacity as mine (twin high flow valves, with 2 stage ALS (mild and then aggressive)), and it makes absolutely NO differnce to the boost threshold on that either .

Obviously if feels superbly responsive INSIDE the threshold, but outside it, even with the full on aggressive set up, it makes NO difference .

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

mike are you still harping on
obviously

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Provide that data-logging that shows the boost threshold moved by a significant amount and I'll shut the fuck up .

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Define significant?

Would 200rpm or more qualify?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

True, by neither eating nor being a dick, unlike you obviously

dojj

iTrader: (3)

you know what i reckon?

this will all end in at ford fair the way this is carrying on

you'll have mike the cruiserwieght in a handicap match against stu and chip, with me doing the ring announcing and stav being the ref who will dq everyone when tsm does a run in with the steel chair

i wonder who'll do the ring bell? i wonder if the guy from jerry springer is going to be free to attend..............

now for the serious bit

i wuold have thought that air injection would have been more tuneable to meet the demands of the als in that it could also be mapped in with the als/launch systems rather than relying on the rise and fall of pressures in the turbo to control the wastegate?

and another question, what's this air bypass you are all on about now? i thought i'd just about figured out boost threshold after several attempts to write an explanation but now i'm flumoxxed again

i must remember to vote for this as most informative thread in gd this year at the annual awards

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Air injectors only control the SIGNAL pressure to the actuator, you clearly dont understand how they work, they have nothing to do with this disucssion, please stop bringing them up all the time as they arent relevant.

dojj

iTrader: (3)

anti lag then virtually eliminates the lag from the turbo between gearchanges fromwhat i can figure out

launch control is basicly anti lag but when you are sitting still

both make more boost at any given time than without and both running will reslut in more avialable and useable power

right so far?

the hows and why's and the technically quotes i'll leave for the rest of you to discuss then as long as thats the basics of what happens (as i understand it)

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Launch control has not really got any direct link to boost or lag, its about limiting engine RPM during a launch, you can have it even on N/A engines, its effects on boost are merely side effects.

Antilag aims to keep the turbo spinning at times it wouldnt be.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I find it most interesting indeed that people in this topic agree wholeheartedly that our Launch Control product will bring a turbos boost threshold right down by retarding timing and bypassing air, yet they disagree that ALS will bring it down by retarding timing and bypassing air.

Quality "theories" chaps. Anyone want to join me in the real world for a beer this weekend?

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

smells good to me stu
is it your time of the month mike or are you having a mid life crisis.
I though you had corrected your dig at stu I mean topic, earlier in that what you meant to say was stu perhaps should (could) have added "boost threshold" to his 5k word article. Now it appear you have moved on to argue with yourself.

Perhaps you'd like to do a detailed list explaining all the possible engine design affects and turbo and management system criteria that would affect boost threshold.Or should we all just copy and paste stu's article inserting the words boost threshold

dojj

iTrader: (3)

i wasn't aware of that, i may be tempted to find out more about it at a later stage

turning a 5000 word artilce by stu into a 12 worded sentance for me