MSD's ALS feature in Fast Ford
01-08-2007, 09:56 AM
#82
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
..........Is there anyone else in this thread who would be prepared to pay good money to see Stu's teenage daughter use those karate and kickboxing skills to kick the shit out of Mike for slagging off her dad? 
01-08-2007, 09:56 AM
#83
Originally Posted by L8 ECU
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
..........Is there anyone else in this thread who would be prepared to pay good money to see Stu's teenage daughter use those karate and kickboxing skills to kick the shit out of Mike for slagging off her dad?
01-08-2007, 09:59 AM
#84
Originally Posted by L8 ECU
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
..........Is there anyone else in this thread who would be prepared to pay good money to see Stu's teenage daughter use those karate and kickboxing skills to kick the shit out of Mike for slagging off her dad?
.
01-08-2007, 10:00 AM
#85
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by cosmo V6
Originally Posted by T S M
Perhaps your topic should have been "Can some one please explain how als works rather than start the topic attacking stu's article
as opposed to diving straight in
01-08-2007, 10:58 AM
#88
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by cosmo V6
Originally Posted by T S M
Perhaps your topic should have been "Can some one please explain how als works rather than start the topic attacking stu's article
as opposed to diving straight in
It's also blatently obvious by some of the posts that plenty of people that "think" they do, don't though .Where do you think i was wrong then?
01-08-2007, 11:11 AM
#89
Originally Posted by Raasclart
JCB for Mike Rainbird please... as this shovel he is using doesnt seem to be doing much good!!
There is a subtle difference in what Stu wrote in his article:
Originally Posted by Stu in FF this month
EVER since the turbocharger was conceived a global problem has always been the amount of time it takes to create boost pressure. With any 1.6 or 2-litre engine making good power you will invariably find a Turbocharger that is not quite suited to the engine, in that it takes a long time after pressing the accelerator for it to consume enough air through the turbine to generate good boost pressure. This time delay between pressing the accelerator and receiving boost is called turbo lag and it’s a real pain when you are changing gear, or even just backing off the throttle for a corner. On a rally stage, this delay can win and lose races by quite a margin, so every bit of turbo lag that can be removed is well worth it. What we need is some form of ‘anti’ turbo lag (ALS) device.
Originally Posted by Stu
Garret themselves say:
What is Turbo Lag?
Turbo lag is the time delay of boost response after the throttle is opened when operating above the boost threshold engine speed.
Turbo lag is the time delay of boost response after the throttle is opened when operating above the boost threshold engine speed.
He failed to mention these differences, and IMO, these differences are quite important.
Everything else he wrote is perfect and very easy to understand
, it's just that by not describing "lag" in terms of mentioning boost threshold, the misnoma of what lag actually is, has continued to be perpetuated - that is all I was trying to get across.
01-08-2007, 11:36 AM
#92
Chip,
Yes that is 100% what I am saying
. That subtle difference of leaving that out will make people think that "lag" is the time it takes for the turbo to spool up from scratch / low rpm.
When in fact, lag is the time it takes to spool up when the turbo is in its operating range.
Obviously ALS is for the latter, not the former (in my experience of it on my car).
Yes that is 100% what I am saying
. That subtle difference of leaving that out will make people think that "lag" is the time it takes for the turbo to spool up from scratch / low rpm.When in fact, lag is the time it takes to spool up when the turbo is in its operating range
.Obviously ALS is for the latter, not the former (in my experience of it on my car).
01-08-2007, 11:41 AM
#93
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by Matt
lets not forget everybody that with mike were talking about a man technical enough to try (after a call to harvey from germany ) and repair a split hose on a red hot engine and burn himself in the same spot a million times i hear rumour he also got his tongue stuck to a ski lift once too
) and repair a split hose on a red hot engine and burn himself in the same spot a million times i hear rumour he also got his tongue stuck to a ski lift once too WTF are you on about
, I first thought it was the dump valve leaking, so I asked him if he thought it would be okay to remove the DV to test the theory, but he advised against it. I burnt myself on the supplementary radiator that sits above the normal one trying to get the DV out to have a look at it, and if you have ever seen how tight me engine bay is, then you will know there's room for fag papers and that's about it . Upon checking the DV, this seemed to be all okay anyway(was fully sealing), so I then stripped the whole induction system out to check the turbo to intercooler pipe, which being fully heat wrapped had no evidence of leaks. It wasn't until the final jubilee clip was removed and the pipe pulled off that you could see that where the heatwrap stopped (where the jubilee clip was on the last part of the end of the pipe) that the heat transfer from the ALS into the jubilee had melted the hose underneath the clamp 
and this is where it was leaking. I cut this back, made sure the heatwrap was underneath the jubilee and it held okay for the rest of the time at the Ring. However, don't let the facts get in the way of your story, I like your version so much better 
.
looked like this to everyone present
"can i undo this harvey?"
"yes"
"ouch"
"what about this harvey?"
"yes"
"ouch"
01-08-2007, 11:42 AM
#94
Mike, would you say that:
Lag is the response time when above the boost threshold
Effectively would be read as meaning:
Lag is the response time when above the boost threshold, and that threshold doesnt change irrespective of the use of ALS
And its that latter part of the sentance which is in fact implied that is your key issue with what Stu said, that people will not realise that the boost threshold hasnt changed and they still need to be at the same rpm?
Lag is the response time when above the boost threshold
Effectively would be read as meaning:
Lag is the response time when above the boost threshold, and that threshold doesnt change irrespective of the use of ALS
And its that latter part of the sentance which is in fact implied that is your key issue with what Stu said, that people will not realise that the boost threshold hasnt changed and they still need to be at the same rpm?
01-08-2007, 12:07 PM
#95
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Mike, would you say that:
Lag is the response time when above the boost threshold
Lag is the response time when above the boost threshold
.
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Effectively would be read as meaning:
Lag is the response time when above the boost threshold, and that threshold doesnt change irrespective of the use of ALS
Lag is the response time when above the boost threshold, and that threshold doesnt change irrespective of the use of ALS
. Yes, that is my experience of ALS on a large turbo. In fact, when I first got it fitted, I was HUGELY disappointed in the fact that the boost threshold point was not changed and that with it activated, there was absolutely no improvement UNTIL you got into the boost threshold and then it was like "Oh my god", with absolutely NO "lag" between gear changes (as in the true definition of lag in my eyes ), whilst in the boost threshold.I even quizzed Harvey and Ahmend at the time as to why that would be and it was explained that on the Mountune Torque Control set up, that as soon as the accelerator is re-pressed, the ALS disengages, and you're then relying on normal exhaust gases to over-come the inertia of the turbo. If these are lower than the amount of energy that was being pumped into the turbine when the ALS was active, then the turbo slows back down and needs the required gas energy to bring it back into it's boost threshold, which can only be achieved with the relevant rpm showing. Therefore if the car is outside this rpm range, you still suffer from the same lack of response as normal. It's a really weird feeling as well, as it starts to feel responsive and then dulls as the energy can no longer over come the inertia of the turbo.
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
And its that latter part of the sentance which is in fact implied that is your key issue with what Stu said, that people will not realise that the boost threshold hasnt changed and they still need to be at the same rpm?
. However, as an added aside, with a big turbo (such as a T4), then yes that is my experience of the boost threshold not changing, as per the earlier explanation. I was hoping that in this regard, Stu was going to say, well if you do this, that and the other, then we can bring the turbo onto boost before it's normal rpm threshold is reached.
01-08-2007, 12:20 PM
#96
I can see that I am probably being set-up for a HUGE fall
Ive actually got very little experience of antilag of the type you are discussing, however Ive got plenty of experience of using nitrous as antilag.
What happens with nitrous as antilag is that you see an increased amount of exhaust gas flow as a result of the nitrous, so consequently as well as providing extra power during the lag period, it also reduces the lag time (due to more gas flow spooling quicker) but ALSO it lowers the boost threshold due to the extra gas flow.
Now im sure that all makes perfect sense to you?
However, the key thing is what happens when the nitrous stops.
If you put that engine in 5th gear, outside the boost threshold and point it up a hill (to slow engine RPM change enough for you to see what really happens) what you will find is that when the nitrous stops, the boost actually remains, as you are now in a situation where the engine sees boost as the nitrous stops, so consequently flows a larger volume of air than it normally would outside the threshold (as normally it wouldnt have boost) so as a result it actually KEEPS THE TURBO SPINNING and your boost threshold has magically moved down the RPM
Im absolutely POSITIVE the same will happen (im not sure of the extent to which it will do so though, just that it will) with "conventional" anti lag.
Because at the point you open the throttle and the ALS cuts out you have boost, the engine will create more gas than normal, so will keep the turbo spinning more than normal.
So I think that Stu's article stands as totally correct personally
01-08-2007, 12:37 PM
#97
Other than my MAIN bone of contention regarding the true definition of "lag", which was not (in my opinion) adequately clarified 
.
The MTC set-up doesn't seem to work in the way you describe, with a single ALS valve (maybe not enough air flow?) and a T4. Next time I speak to Ahmed / Harvey, I'll have a chat to them about why this might be (however, that won't be until the weekend, as I dare not interrupt him while he is finishing off my car ) .
And just to clarify my own experiences, I am obviously meaning that when my particular car drops below 3150rpm (the boost threshold of my old engine), my ALS set up had no effect in overcoming the inertia of the T4. So from idle to this point is a "dead zone" in terms of response, with or without the ALS active.
.The MTC set-up doesn't seem to work in the way you describe, with a single ALS valve (maybe not enough air flow?) and a T4. Next time I speak to Ahmed / Harvey, I'll have a chat to them about why this might be (however, that won't be until the weekend, as I dare not interrupt him while he is finishing off my car
) .And just to clarify my own experiences, I am obviously meaning that when my particular car drops below 3150rpm (the boost threshold of my old engine), my ALS set up had no effect in overcoming the inertia of the T4. So from idle to this point is a "dead zone" in terms of response, with or without the ALS active.
01-08-2007, 12:50 PM
#98
With a bigger valve I suspect you would have seen some of the advantages I mentioned.
The other time that potentially you would have noticed a similar effect possibly (although I doubt you remember your car in this detail) is that if you short shifted 4th on a big hill whilst on full boost so that you came in at about 2900rpm, you would experience boost at under 3K in 5th that would have remained.
Thats such a specific set of circumstances though, that I doubt you can recall if you ever did it!
The other time that potentially you would have noticed a similar effect possibly (although I doubt you remember your car in this detail) is that if you short shifted 4th on a big hill whilst on full boost so that you came in at about 2900rpm, you would experience boost at under 3K in 5th that would have remained.
Thats such a specific set of circumstances though, that I doubt you can recall if you ever did it!
01-08-2007, 12:56 PM
#99
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
With a bigger valve I suspect you would have seen some of the advantages I mentioned.
The other time that potentially you would have noticed a similar effect possibly (although I doubt you remember your car in this detail) is that if you short shifted 4th on a big hill whilst on full boost so that you came in at about 2900rpm, you would experience boost at under 3K in 5th that would have remained.
Thats such a specific set of circumstances though, that I doubt you can recall if you ever did it!
The other time that potentially you would have noticed a similar effect possibly (although I doubt you remember your car in this detail) is that if you short shifted 4th on a big hill whilst on full boost so that you came in at about 2900rpm, you would experience boost at under 3K in 5th that would have remained.
Thats such a specific set of circumstances though, that I doubt you can recall if you ever did it!
. However, I am intrigued by your comments and will actually test this and data log it and report back .
01-08-2007, 01:04 PM
#102
Originally Posted by CossieRich
Are we trying to get tot he bottom of the difference between lag and boost threshold here or the effect ALS has on boost threshold and lag?
I dont think we are still trying to get to the botom of anything mate?
I think Mike probably now realises why Stu's article was worded the way it was, and I think everyone in the thread knows the difference between lag and boost threshold.
01-08-2007, 01:10 PM
#103
DEYTUKURJERBS
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
However, I am intrigued by your comments and will actually test this and data log it and report back .
.its like talking about turbos like your an expert in them when you just work at dominos, or something.
01-08-2007, 01:20 PM
#105
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Originally Posted by CossieRich
Are we trying to get tot he bottom of the difference between lag and boost threshold here or the effect ALS has on boost threshold and lag?
I dont think we are still trying to get to the botom of anything mate?
I think Mike probably now realises why Stu's article was worded the way it was, and I think everyone in the thread knows the difference between lag and boost threshold.
I think we can safely say the people reading this post will know the difference
, but I don't think the people who read the article will (all because one simple sentence was missed out) .Stav,
My new intake has the full WRC ALS valve on, so I think that will be okay
.
01-08-2007, 01:35 PM
#106
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Im with Mike on this one
Lag is the time it takes for the turbo to go from making positive boost to full boost. The turbo starts to make positive boost once the car has signifant exhaust gasses to spin the turbo (boost threshold).
I am with Mike in that I think a lot of people would tend to think that anti-lag means the turbo is in full boost all the time - kind of like permanent Lanch control
When in reality this is not the case. Now whether the use of ALS *CAN* reduce the boost threshold marginally due to the way it operates is by the by.
Lag is the time it takes for the turbo to go from making positive boost to full boost. The turbo starts to make positive boost once the car has signifant exhaust gasses to spin the turbo (boost threshold).
I am with Mike in that I think a lot of people would tend to think that anti-lag means the turbo is in full boost all the time - kind of like permanent Lanch control
When in reality this is not the case. Now whether the use of ALS *CAN* reduce the boost threshold marginally due to the way it operates is by the by.
01-08-2007, 01:41 PM
#107
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Everything else he wrote is perfect and very easy to understand , it's just that by not describing "lag" in terms of mentioning boost threshold, the misnoma of what lag actually is, has continued to be perpetuated - that is all I was trying to get across.
, it's just that by not describing "lag" in terms of mentioning boost threshold, the misnoma of what lag actually is, has continued to be perpetuated - that is all I was trying to get across.I am talking about LAG, in an article about LAG, and you think somehow that its my fault that people dont know what LAG actually is?
If you were talking about meat and potato pies, would i be right to slate you publically on an internet forum just because you didnt waste space telling people that there are no tomatoes in a meat and potato pie?
01-08-2007, 01:43 PM
#108
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
So what you are saying is that other peoples ASSUMPTIONS are now my failing?
I am talking about LAG, in an article about LAG, and you think somehow that its my fault that people dont know what LAG actually is?
If you were talking about meat and potato pies, would i be right to slate you publically on an internet forum just because you didnt waste space telling people that there are no tomatoes in a meat and potato pie?
I am talking about LAG, in an article about LAG, and you think somehow that its my fault that people dont know what LAG actually is?
If you were talking about meat and potato pies, would i be right to slate you publically on an internet forum just because you didnt waste space telling people that there are no tomatoes in a meat and potato pie?
Unless that was aimed at mike, in which case fire away
01-08-2007, 01:50 PM
#113
Stu, but YOU told them what lag is :
But in my opinion, you told them incorrectly . You should have put the Garrett definition .
In my opinion in putting what you did, you have perpetuated the age old mistake of confusing lag and boost threshold, which will now be taken as gospil - because YOU wrote it.
I look forward to your next turbo article where you mention waste-gate chatter .
:
Originally Posted by Stu in FF
This time delay between pressing the accelerator and receiving boost is called turbo lag
. You should have put the Garrett definition .In my opinion in putting what you did, you have perpetuated the age old mistake of confusing lag and boost threshold, which will now be taken as gospil - because YOU wrote it
.I look forward to your next turbo article where you mention waste-gate chatter
.
01-08-2007, 01:56 PM
#116
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
I also notice you have sneakily re-worded what you ACTUALLY said in teh first post yesterday Mike?
Anyone got it cached?
Anyone got it cached?
Perhaps you should actually read your pm's that I sent you, one yesterday and one today, saying I would do this as I didn't want to offend you and had no intention of doing so
.If you note, I only changed one sentence (the first) and two smilies so that it came across "better"
.
01-08-2007, 01:58 PM
#117
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
LMAO @ Mike going back and editing the original post this morning
Last edited by Mike Rainbird on Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:52 am; edited 2 times in total
Last edited by Mike Rainbird on Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:52 am; edited 2 times in total
.
