Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

My Piper cam kit came today

how the fook do you set the timing and stuff?

also, where can i get the little dowls from to lock the pulleys to the cams?



any help appreciated!!

jb fletch

iTrader: (1)

Easy fella,

The dowell's should be in the old cams - unless this is for a Cossie ? In which case i'd guess your cam supplier !

As for the cam timing, your need a DTi gauge to do it properly ! Or use the old pulley, time it up & then swap the pullys over hoping the cams don't move with the outter ring loose on the vernier & then tighten everything after you put the belt on !

Good luck !

Jb

jb fletch

iTrader: (1)

Just noticed it says Zetec on the wrapper !

So should be in the old cams like on a Cossie or Rs turbo with the woodruff key !

Jb

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

soz, forgot to say, they are for a zetec turbo.

there are no keys or dowls on the std ones, they are friction bolt things.

i have a data sheet saying that the inlet should be open 22 deg BTDC and close 62 ABDC

and the zorst should be open 62 BBDC and close 22 ATDC

i understand that bit, dunno how its done

i will be able to get hold of a DTI too

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

So they are 264degree duration cams with 44 degrees of overlap. So you would set the full lift of the inlet at 110deg ATDC.*

If you want to know how to work that out, read the essay i have spent many many many hours writing for next months Fast Ford magazine, and i still havent managed to get it to read how i want it to.



* Thats top of my head, use at your peril. lol

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

it said something like that lol

cheers stu, ill await to read your article!!!



just out of interest tho, is it pretty much the same as how the std zetecs are timed? there are still the cutouts in the backs of the cams for the 5mm thick plate to slot in.

cheers

dojj

iTrader: (3)

from watching the bloke who builds things on discovery, you set the cam up to rear tdc and then fiddle with the dti and the timing disc that should come with the kit

but you need to know where tdc is set at first before you start to adjust otherwise it'll run like a bag of poo

on a tangent, didn't iread somewehre that blown motors don't need as much overlap as na engines?

jb fletch

iTrader: (1)

Stu,

Can i just say your features in FF are the absolute mutz ! Full respect & i for one wanna thank you for doing it month after month, it must take up so much time & effort !

So thank you

Jb

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I wouldnt risk it to be honest mate.

Shove a degree wheel on the crank, grab a DTi, check that full lift on No1 inlet occurs at 110 degrees ATDC.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Thats right to a degree as the boost tends to blow perfectly good fuel and air out of the exhaust on overlap, but at very vight revs it can be a good thing. Horses for courses.


Thanks very much, im really pleased you enjoy them so much mate, makes it all the more rewarding, as sometimes, money (yes, they do pay me) just isnt enough when your sat there at 4am writing em as its the only time you can concentrate on that alone. lol

RS_Ant

There excelent Stu, just hope they dont ask you to write an article on woman because you'll be there forever

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

cheers stu,

so how do you make sure the degree wheel is deffo at 0, or can you just nail it on, and then go 110 deg from where ever, i guess it doesnt matter?

spec sheet does say 110deg and 44 over lap too

Anonymous

Dan, it doesnt matter what its at, you just need to make sure its moved 110 degrees from where it was at TDC to where the cam is at peak lift.


So if its starts at 89 degrees it ends at 199 degrees.


Obviously neater to do it at 0 though.



You just use a bit of wire or something bolted on as a reference on the dial.



Heres my mini when i was timing it in, i know its only got 1 cam and its in the block, but this was about 10 years ago and i wasnt into "twinks" at the time, lol, gives an idea though.

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

cheers chip, that helps

so with the pistons set to TDC and the dial at 0, wind it round 110 degrees and that should be fully open?

it says on the timing disc to put the DTI on the spring cap, and the data sheet is saying that the inlet should be open 22 deg BTDC and close 62 ABDC

is thatthe DTI should start to move down at 22 deg BTDC and be fully up at 62 deg ABDC?

i think i understand that

Anonymous

22 + 180 + 62 = 264, oh look its the duration!


BUT open how much?


different manufacturers quote duration at different number of thou lift.

IGNORE that bit, and just time it to 110 at full lift.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

That the kiddy.

GARETH T

make sure you balnace the dwell at full lift aswell,,

Anonymous

Dan, the 22 and 62 are basically telling you the specification of the camshaft, they arent relevant to instalation.

If you install it at 110, thats where they will end up anyway.



They are meaningless really though in terms lf REAL specification, well without knowing the lift too, hence why you cant compare different cams without more info.



Are those cams intended for a turbo or are those N/A Timing figures?


If they are N/A you will probably want to spin them apart by a couple of degrees but you need it on a dyno to do this really.

ian sibbert

Dan,

Have a look at this site....

http://alcester-racing-sevens.com/cam_timing.htm

Ian

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

ok, now i get confused

i want full lift of the inlet to be 110 deg BTDC

and the exhaust to be 110 deg ATDC

and thats it?

that sounds like the std set up to me, (prolly wrong here tho ) so do i leave the adjustable pullys as they are?

Anonymous

Dan, fit them as standard


Then check to see where they are timed.


It will NOT be correct, i guarentee it.



then loosen the pulleys (on the internal bolts not the centre loose on the cam) and adjust them.

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

Chip

full spec is as follows - they are BD10's but on zetec cams

INLET: open 22 deg, close 62, Dur 264, V/L 8.64mm (0.340") V/C 0.0., F/L 110, LATDC 1.05mm (0.041")

EXHAUST: open 62 deg, close 22, Dur 264, V/L 8.64mm (0.340"), V/C 0.0, F/L 110, LATDC 1.06mm (0.042")

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

as in leave the big one in the middle tight, and loosen the 4 litte ones on the verniers?

i think i understand, im tired tho

Anonymous

That doesnt tell you the lift on overlap, the amount of lift at 22 degrees or the amount of lift at 62 degrees.


Its NOT the full spec, its just some basics.

Anonymous

Dan, the best way to do them is this:


Get a dial gauge
Get the cam timing dial
Fit them standard
Buy me a big mac meal and i will pop up and time them in for you.

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

lol, i want to do it myself as i wont ever learn if i just let someone else do it, but for a bigmac you can come and explain it

might even strech to a pizza hut as its closer than md's

Anonymous

Sounds like a plan Dan


Just let me know when you want me to pop up mate

dojj

iTrader: (3)

can't you just put the verniers to 0 and put the cames in where they are supposed to go?
the zetec has them little slots in the back to time the cams in right?
and then go from there?
at least your base will be set the right paramiters

Anonymous

That assumes the same centreline as the standard cams, which is often not the case, it would put him in the right ballpark, but only to then set from, its NOT sufficient to make those sort of assumptions and could lead to piston to vlave contact on some cams (although not those i doubt on his pistons)

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

chip, i still have to build the bloody engine first, but rest assured, when the time comes ill give you a call

possibly do a little how to feature on it too

dojj, yes they have the slots, so ill go from there

is it worth doing a dummy build and putting some plasticine on the top of a piston and turning the cam over to see how close the valves get?

or not really worth it? i dont think the lift is any more than std really

dojj

iTrader: (3)

i rememebr from my bmw days that there were different thickness head gaskets and certain engines needed different ones otherwise the valves would hit the pistons

if there was no way to check how much skim there was on the heads we'd have to bolt it all up and then spin it over by hand to see if they hit or not

so i'm sure there is a way to discover the hieght of the piston in the bore at tdc and the extent of the valve when it opens and then calculate where abouts you can time it in to minimise any chance of them hitting each other?

and if chip is correct (not that i'm doubting you chip ) and the centrelines aren't the same as the normal ford cams at least you know where to set up your cams for the opening/closing peaks too
ok, so if you have a longer duration then you might have to trial and error it, but you can always use one of them hight gauge things (can't rememebr what they're called but they are a big wieght with a ruller and a point on the end and you slide them up and down to see how high things are on a flat surface) to measure how far up the valves are going to go

are uyou useing hydraulic or solid lifters because that can also make a difference can't it?

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

cheers mate, im using hydro tappets.

i can get a DTI (dial test indicator) that will measure how far they open/close etc.

Anonymous

Dan what i do if im not sure on clearance is put it together with no head gasket and turn it slowly round, if you get no contact then, you know you have 1mm clearance when the gasket is on, which gives some spare room to swing the verniers a little, but yeah plastigauge would be cool too.

If you are on hydraulics though they need to be pumped up which potentially they wont be though!

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

arse, oh, and my head gasket is 0.5mm compressed

ill try and find out what the std lift of the valves is, but its got bigger valves in too so that will affect it also.

Anonymous

Its not just the lift versus standard either mate, the duration and timing also effect wether or not it will contact

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

oh yeah didnt think of that, jesus this is hard work....

LOTS to learn

Anonymous

PMSL


Tell you what mate, i will come over and talk to you about it at ford fair, easier than all this forum bollocks