Dave2302

Hi all,

Bit of a weird one this, but I've a feeling Stu can probably help

I'm a professional tech with 40 years experience. I sort out management problems for all our local garages, build rally cars, auto gearboxes etc etc.

I am on a rapid upwards learning curve regarding mapping and can use software like Bike Power Commander, Megasquirt etc and get good results
I'm not fully up to speed with EECV as I understand it uses different adresses for functions, from one ECU to the next.
I'm also very doubtful that ELM or KW will be suitable for EECV, and don't want to waste money on something not suitable.

I've built a 4X4 Ford Puma with a V6 BOB Cosworth in it, for Stage Rallying. Car is up and running reasonably well picked up 2nd place last time out.

I am using a 1997 "Ruth" ECU from a Manual V6 Mondeo on the car.
Main reason is it has no Auto Box functions that would need fooling and only uses 2 Lambdas, so again no fooling needed.
With only a few changes to the pin outs it is virtually plug and play, and the PATS works fine with the BOB Scorpio PATS Module and the Puma key coded to the Module.

I would love to take this car to Stu for a live remap, but finances and my location (NW Scotland) prohibit this.
The car runs fine, (very slightly on the rich side from a data log we did), but pulls well with no stumbles misfires etc, and timing isn't too far off, certainly no det. Cold start running is very good too. So the Mondeo V6 map isn't too far off.
It has one or 2 issues such as idling well fast cold and a bit fast hot (950 - 1000 rpm), and I would also like to lower the cooling fan on and offs as I'm running the engine (without cats) at 82 degrees, thermostat in top hose !!

What I want to know is, could someone like Stu put one of his decent stock BOB fuel and igniton tables in the Mondy ECU, and in particular, if I posted an ECU to him ?
Alternatively, could I use a J3 port plug in chip for the BOB, in this ECU or would I then get all the Auto Box stuff back cos it might be on a plug in chip?

Or can someone point me to a software package and a lead interface that would enable me to re flash my ecu via the diagnostic OBD Plug, or via the J3 (second choice that).

All advice gratefully received, but please don't guess, as I can't afford to waste money on stuff that doesn't work.

Thanks in anticipation,

Regards Dave

Crofty_here

http://www.performanceremap.co.uk/
he wont travel to Scotland but he might be able to point you in the right direction.
Chris.

Dave2302

Thanks but that really isn't what I need, he just installs standard maps in standard ECU's like most remappers

Anyone ??

Regards Dave

opposite lock

iTrader: (3)

Contact Stu or Kenny im sure he,ll give you all releavant info regarding your ECU capabilities and data.

Dave2302

Yeah, I'll just have to keep phoning, they are as hard to get hold of as me LOL.

I know they will beth guys to do this for me they come highly recommended..............

I've go the car running very well now, idle has stabilised around 750 - 800 rpm now its had a good run and learned it's fuelling etc.

But I definitely need the Fan on and off temps lowered, and would like a decent BOB Cosworth fuel and ignition map loaded into the ecu as the car seems to be a bit flat in the mid range............

Cheers Dave

sailorbob

If the V6 engine is pretty much standard then it's probably easier to use the standard ecu and change the transmission and HEGO sensor settings rather than use the Mondeo ecu.

Dave2302

Well beleive me I spent ages trying to get someone to do that before I tested the Mondeo ECU, and nobody knew or could do it, I just got a load of Bull
It seems the geeks don't decode the transmission strategys in the EECV'S

Going back to a BOB ECU now would mean altering the wiring and adding a EDIS6 module, plus building a fooling circuit so it thinks it's still got an Auto Gearbox..............All this has been done but it's not a route I want to go with my Rally Car.

That's why we spent ages data logging a mates Stock but Manual Gearbox Converted Cosworth Scorpio with a V6 Mondy ECU on it, we found that ran a touch rich, so as mine has a free flowing exhaust and decent air intake it should be about right.............

But a plug chop from a full throttle run shows it to be well lean..............

I'm still waiting for a wideband lambda kit I just bought to arrive so I can get some meaningful readings, will also check fuel pressure in case I have an iffy pump or regulator

It drives very well on the Mondy ECU, cold start is fine etc, just feels a bit flat and growly in the mid range, so I don't think the maps are that far off

Lambdas are switching nicely and fuel trims are good............so fecked if I know, but I'm on an uwards learning curve LOL

Trouble is where I live nobody does anything like this, they are still running their rally cars on Points Ignition and Carbs LOL, unless they've got Mega bucks to take them south when they need mapping !!

I also don't want to go aftermarket ECU route, they are nowhere near as good as an EECV (provided of course I can map it

Cheers Dave

sailorbob

Using an auto ecu on a manual gearbox swap is usually pretty straight forward with the eec-iv/v ecu's - all you typically need to change is two bytes (the 'Transmission Type' (aka TRLOAD) and 'Transmission Strategy' (aka TSTRAT) parameters).

Now, compare that to altering an ecu from a different type of engine and it's a lot more work. From a circa '97 ecu and looking at swapping the spark parameters over you'd have about 20 tables, 30 functions and numerous scalars. Then add in all the other stuff like engine displacement, injector size, MAF transfer, estimated load tables and so on you get the idea of what's involved. It can all be done but I'm not sure a tuner would tackle it as a 'mail order' tune.

Out of curiosity, what was the 'catch' code of the original ecu.

Dave2302

Original ECU is "EXIT"

What you say sounds ideal in practice but without the cal and def files for this ECU I'm told it can't be done.

I am posting a spare "EXIT" and "RUTH" to a specialist who is going to read them from J3 and see what he can do

If you can get or know where I can get these files please let me know.

Regards Dave

sailorbob

The EXIT ecu uses the 'ABAR0' strategy and the RUTH ecu uses the 'ATAFF' strategy.

I haven't seen either of their bin files or played with those strategies myself but I suspect there may be quite bit of a difference considering the ABAR0 is early eec-v and just a couple of years later things changed quite a bit with the rom size requirements doubling for most strategies.

If you do get a copy of the bin files I wouldn't mind taking a peek at them

Rollinz

Would it not be easier and far more beneficial to fit aftermarket managment??
Like emerald or dta??

Dave2302

Put simply NO

I'd far rather use EECV it is a much more suitable unit with regards to it interacting with instruments and all the other bits on a car that was originally EECV managed.
Also the EECV is a far more powerful computer with a lot more functions than the aftermarket stuff.

IMHO like I said earlier, much better for my applicaion provided I can Map it LOL, or if I cant do it, then as long as I can get the correct files, I now have someone who probably can

@ Sailor Bob..............

Thanks for that, now I know what strategies I need, I stand a better chance of finding the files I need from other sources, Cheers.

Thanks guys,

Dave

Rollinz

In that case , i know a program that will allow you access via j3 port and be able to live tune using laptop, but then you will need a chip burner to create a chip to have plugged in the j3 port all the time..?!?
Any use? If so will get you details

Dave2302

Oh YES please, thank you very much, much appreciated...................

I'm looking at chip burners and buying kit atm so someone with your knowledge will save me buying stuff I don't need

Can't find a decent J3 chip interface that sits outside the ECU, don't want Quarterhorse etc as it goes inside and will be harder to swap from ECU to ECU
Can you point me to one ?

I know once I get into it and get the right kit I'll be qute capable of mapping it, I've had good results mapping other ECU's in the past

Cheers Dave

Rollinz

Wil send you a pm over now,
Have you calibrated factory ecu's before then?? There nothing like doing aftermarket with user friendly software,

Dave2302

Hi,

Will go look at PM in a sec...........

Yes I have calibrated factory ECU's, know what you mean re user friendly software LOL............

I have plenty kit for Bosch ECU's but sadly don't have the gear for the EEC's.

Obviously I have spare ECU's to focwit first LOL

Cheers Dave

sailorbob

There are no issues using the QuarterHorse and swapping it in and out but if it really bugs you then Moates do an extension cable called the SideSaddle that allows the QH to sit outside of the ecu casing.

Dave2302

Sailorbob,

Yep you are quite correct, I found the sidesaddle after the above post, so if all else fails then that's what I'll have to get.............however................

I've seen a nice little board that plugs into J3 like a chip and can be used for reading and writing the ROM, MSD uses one, but I don't know who sells this. A ribbon cable just comes from this to the laptop, or an emulator, which I might get later on for live mapping.
Do you know where I can get this little J3 Interface ?

Also do you know where I can get the cal files for ATAFF and ABARO ?? .............

A specialist has kindly agreed to read my spare ECU's firmware but he doesn't have the cal files, which are, (correct me if I'm wrong), the files that make the firmware intelligeable to a dummy like me

Cheers for your help and advice on all this, feel free to pm me if you wish, or if you can impart any knowledge to my ageing grey matter via phone I'll let you have my number.

Here's a few pix of ma Beastie .................









Cheers for now,

Dave

sailorbob

For reading the ecu from the J3 connector you can use the Moates F2A and F2E adapters along with a suitable chip programmer such as the Moates Burn2. Moates did do an adapter called the FORDEMU for use with an emulator but they've discontinued it because it only really worked with the eec-iv and the QH is now available.

There is other stuff available to do the same but it tends to be aimed at the commercial tuner and the price reflect this.

I'm afraid I don't know where to get the ATAFF and ABAR0 calibration or definitions (aka strategy files) from. DIY stuff for European ecu's is pretty thin on the ground. The definition files are what interpret the various parameters into user friendly values and unit. The calibration files are the binary files from the rom.

Rollinz

Car looks fantastic mate,
Is it 4wd or just rear?

Dave2302

Thank you buddy,

I see it all now, (some of it),

So once I've read the ECU and copied the ROM contents I have the Cal files (also known as binaries or firmware)...............Correct ?

The def files are the ones that make it easier on the numpty (me) yes ?

Would these def files have been used by Ford or whoever programmed their ECU's originally ?

If so I may have a back door

Cheers for now Dave

Dave2302

Both

By whipping the rear prop and back casing off the transfer box I have a dummy gearset we made / modded, which gives it RWD only.

Takes about 1/2 hour on my 2 post lift

I did this because we have some events up here which are 2wd only

It's a Cosworth Scorpio back end with 3.9 7.5" diff (2.3 Scorpio) with LSD 108mm Cosworth rear shafts, and Vented Cosworth Scorpio Rear Brakes, Sierra Cosworth 4X4 Front End with Cosworth Scorpio Front Brakes / Calipers, 3.9 (2.0 4x4 Sierra) front diff, Electric Pumped 4X4 Sierra Brakes, Hydraulic Clutch conversion, and Ford 909 Bilsteins with Faulkner Springs for Gravel set up. No ARB's Compression struts on front which adjust castor and sliding top mounts for Camber Adjustment

Did you get my pm earlier?

Cheers Dave

Rollinz

This sounds amazing.....
What sort of money would it cost for you to make one for me? A dummy gearset,

I have an escort cossie, full 909 car,
3.9 rear end,
Drop gear in box to match for front,
909 straight cut motorsport box with a direct drive 5th gear,

Top speed is only 115 but with 500ft lbs it gets there like stink lol

Id like to have an option of just making it rwd just for a bit of fun now and again,

Does it not damage the front diff running without the prop?



Yes got your pm buddy,
Working on sourcing some files if i can,
If not i know a friend whos good at creating them,

He's a bit of a tech nut tbh, im sure he really is neo from the matrix lol

Rollinz

This is my escos rally car

Dave2302

Awesome Car, I love them

You don't take the front prop off leave it on, so it keeps the transfer chain spinning to lube the bearings in the transfer box

As you're helping me with my mapping I'll do another gearset and send it to you for nowt

If you can get them files sorted that will really help me, there is 3 cars up here so far with these engines in, all done by me.

While they run okay, I know they have much more to give with a bit of tweaking
10 yrs ago I built a Saffire with one in, on EECIV ended up 260 hp n/a when I guy down south did a chip for me Have done loads since with these engines, but never an EECV

Not as quick as yours but my Puma gets to 120 in 4th pretty quick LOL, 1150 kg all up, but it's definitely flat mid range

I was originally going to build Escos but couldn't get a shell and panels at the right price, then the Puma came up, rest is history

Build up is on Pumapeople in the "Projects" section, but it's a long read now, very picture heavy

Cheers for now Dave

kateean2

The EXIT ecu uses the 'ABAR0' strategy and the RUTH ecu uses the 'ATAFF' strategy.

Dave2302

Yes, thanks, what we are after is the def files to translate these bin's into user friendly values, can you help ??

Cheers dave

sailorbob

Yes, once you have read the ecu and copied the ROM contents you will have the calibration file. I personally don't think of this as 'firmware' as I tend to consider that as being more for embedded type systems (e.g. the BIOS on a pc)

Yes, the definition (aka strategy) files are the ones that make it easier to edit the calibration. Strategy files are usually specific to an editor program.

Ford use their own propriety systems for programming their ecu's. Here's an example of the kind of stuff they used in the past http://oi47.tinypic.com/6qbr6a.jpg

Rollinz

Hi dave, if you could give me a ring,
Had no luck in been able to get a def file for you, but been told how to hack an ecu......

Very complicated so would need to speak to you and then try my best to explain lol

07858502587

Cheers
Rich

Dave2302

Rich,

Will bell ya next day or 2, going out in a min as I'm working tonite as well, I do a bit of DJ / KJ ing as well as the motors LOL

All yr pm sounds okay to me, ask yr mate for a rough price to do the 2 ECU's

Sailorbob,

So can I get a shot of that Ford gear ? LOL

Cheers for now guys,

Later,

Dave

Rollinz

Hi dave...

Right, try this.... I dont know how you implement it for your aplication,
And use with caution

This is for an ausi xr6 (mondeo st) using an eecV
Using full binary (256k)

Id prefer someone else like sailor bob to help confirm its ok to use before going ahead.

http://www.tunerpro.net/download/bindefs/Ford/CDAN4.xdf

sailorbob

CDAN4 is used on '96-'97 Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, Towncar, Cougar, Thunderbird and Mustang with the 4.6l modular engine and the Cougar, Thunderbird and Mustang with the 3.8l engine. I can say with 100% certainty it isn't going to work with the ATAFF or ABAR0 bins.

The Aussies use their own strategies and the 4.0l XR6 strategies are quite different because they are set up for dual fuel with LPG.

Rollinz

Well thats Cleared that up lol, i just "presumed" that it. Ould work, as the xr6 is basically our st24, albeit a bigger capacity,


Ive asked my mate about creating a def file for dave,

I have information on how to create one but its totally over my head if im honest,

Dave2302

Cheers Rich,

I've downloaded that and saved it in my TunerPro............
A quick look tells me it's for a Automatic ECU, so don't know if it will work or not on the RUTH ??

When I've got the Cal from the RUTH I'll have a look see, but until I try altering parameters, then trying the ECU on the car we really won't know for sure

I supose a simple test will be to alter Idle speed and fan on offs first, see whether that works

Will try and ring you in a while

Sailorbob, what do you think, or should we really hack my particular ECU's and get our own def files, that seems the safest route to me

Cheers for now,

Dave

Dave2302

Ah.........

You guys posted as I did, OK that won't work then

Seems I need someone to do these 2 def files for me then for EXIT and RUTH, or have a go myself LOL

There is a option in TunerPro to create yr own def file, haven't got the Cals yet so cant fiddle atm

Cheers guys

Dave

Dave2302

Right,

I've now just spent a load more $$$ and added to the W/B Innovate and Fuel Pressure Kit that I bought a while ago.

I've done a lot of research and settled on the Moates gear, as it will work with the Bin Editor and Tuner Pro that I've already got
I've also got my Snap On gear which will Data Log.

So Hardware and Software wise I've now got everything I need to get started, except the knowledge of Binaries and Hex Decimals to create these Def files which are the key to unlocking this whole process.

So like I said above it is an upwards learning curve for me, and it's help and advice on creating the Def files that I now need, as I have everything else needed to get started.

I've been swatting up on Decimals and Hexadecimals, and come up with a little spreadsheet that will calculate them for me as it is taking forever to try and work them out in my head, I'm not fluent at it yet

So, for example the binary 01011100 is 8 bits, and its value as a decimal is 92, expressed as a Hex value 5C.......................

Am I right so far ??

Cheers Dave

Rollinz

Im not fluent in it either lol, i admit.... I use a hex calculator to do the work for me,
And i also use win hex (i think its called, its on my other laptop i use for ecu work)
Win hex will help translate hex into binary,

I use it mainly these days for converting vw dashes into audi spec, and at first it took me forwever to work out lol.
Your getting it tho mate,

Dave2302

Cheers Rich,

Yeah, I'm a funny old cuss, once I get a bee in me bonnet about something I've never done I'll keep whittling away until I can do it

That's how I started doing Auto Gearboxes all them years ago

Regards Dave

Dave2302

Hi,

Right, I've managed to extract the full 256k bin file from the RUTH ECU so if anyone can help create a def file I'll EMail it to you.
EMail me footerbare@btinternet.com for a copy.

The Cosworth V6 EXIT seems to be giving different results each time, so not got that one and I only wanted it to see what Cal Ford were running on the engine..............as the def files are so time consuming to create this probably isn't worth the bother
I will post if I manage to make sense of the EXIT bin if anyone is interested

Cheers Dave

3lvis

Edit: -- Wrong place