Help. Please. Cosworth headache.
17-09-2009, 01:29 PM
#1
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
Help. Please. Cosworth headache.
I have a 1991 135000 mile Moonstone Saph Cosworth 4x4 with a full history.
Owned it a couple of years and have yet to fully appreciate its joys. I have yet to up the power,lesser cars leave me behind.
I bought her as an old girl and have treated her as such. I could have been a tool and just whacked on greens and loads of boost, but I wanted it to be right. Thought that'd be appreciated on here!!??
Slowly, I've restored it. 10yrs of driving soon gets a car saggy.
Under the bonnet –31 actuator, K&N Panel filter, 10mm blue silicon ‘twin core’ leads, 071c’s, new cap, rotor, mag mar Grp A coil, ignition amp, sensor set from respected RS parts supplier.(act-ect-phase-crank-fan switch) fse fuel valve.
I have a t34 hybrid, 500 cooler, baffled sump to go on as well, but till she’s right, I don’t want to fit it all, what’s the point.
She misfires, right in the sweet spot of the rev range.
Driving on an A road an FTO came and sat on my bumper, I dropped the car down a gear pulled out to over take a some city box, and instead of pulling away, it missed, shook and vibrated generally sounded and felt horrible, embarrassed the hell out of me and the boot tag, and that was that, back in behind unbeaten city box. It is so pronounced, that I dare not keep my foot down to see if it clears.
On other occasions, she sings right through to 6500rpm, no hesitation.
Also, now.. In the last week, the fuel consumption has gone mad.
I could get 300 miles out of a mixed driven tank of V power, and now, with only driving miss daisy commuting to work due to misfire, I’m down to the last quarter with only 140miles. Help? What the hell’s up with it?
I’ve considered, from numerous sources of information; Leaky plenum gasket, Blown head gasket, Dodgy irridium plugs which I've changed out, Naff fuel pump, dead ECU, damaged ECT, timing out, etc. But none of these seem conducive when on a rare day, she fly’s. Strong solid, big frigging smile inducing fly's. I don’t know of a tuner VERY locally who I trust to turn to. Can someone shed any light on the symptoms I describe?
Owned it a couple of years and have yet to fully appreciate its joys. I have yet to up the power,lesser cars leave me behind.
I bought her as an old girl and have treated her as such. I could have been a tool and just whacked on greens and loads of boost, but I wanted it to be right. Thought that'd be appreciated on here!!??
Slowly, I've restored it. 10yrs of driving soon gets a car saggy.
Under the bonnet –31 actuator, K&N Panel filter, 10mm blue silicon ‘twin core’ leads, 071c’s, new cap, rotor, mag mar Grp A coil, ignition amp, sensor set from respected RS parts supplier.(act-ect-phase-crank-fan switch) fse fuel valve.
I have a t34 hybrid, 500 cooler, baffled sump to go on as well, but till she’s right, I don’t want to fit it all, what’s the point.
She misfires, right in the sweet spot of the rev range.
Driving on an A road an FTO came and sat on my bumper, I dropped the car down a gear pulled out to over take a some city box, and instead of pulling away, it missed, shook and vibrated generally sounded and felt horrible, embarrassed the hell out of me and the boot tag, and that was that, back in behind unbeaten city box. It is so pronounced, that I dare not keep my foot down to see if it clears.
On other occasions, she sings right through to 6500rpm, no hesitation.
Also, now.. In the last week, the fuel consumption has gone mad.
I could get 300 miles out of a mixed driven tank of V power, and now, with only driving miss daisy commuting to work due to misfire, I’m down to the last quarter with only 140miles. Help? What the hell’s up with it?
I’ve considered, from numerous sources of information; Leaky plenum gasket, Blown head gasket, Dodgy irridium plugs which I've changed out, Naff fuel pump, dead ECU, damaged ECT, timing out, etc. But none of these seem conducive when on a rare day, she fly’s. Strong solid, big frigging smile inducing fly's. I don’t know of a tuner VERY locally who I trust to turn to. Can someone shed any light on the symptoms I describe?
17-09-2009, 01:39 PM
#2
sorry to hear about your headaches;
first question is, is that car running standard boost?
misfires could be a whole host of things and sometimes a pain to rectify
common issues which wont cost alot:
phase sensor; sits inside the dizzy cap and the wires corrode to it - check this
change the fuel filter
check the voltage at the fuel pump; you MUST rewire the fuel pump for a direct feed from the battery.
check those first and let me know
first question is, is that car running standard boost?
misfires could be a whole host of things and sometimes a pain to rectify
common issues which wont cost alot:
phase sensor; sits inside the dizzy cap and the wires corrode to it - check this
change the fuel filter
check the voltage at the fuel pump; you MUST rewire the fuel pump for a direct feed from the battery.
check those first and let me know
17-09-2009, 02:14 PM
#4
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
Hello, thanks for reading my post.
To answer your question, Yes. The car is running standard Boost. It peaks at .9 bar and holds nominally at .8 bar on a remote gauge.
I have replaced the phase sensor and it is gapped at 0.3 mm.
I have replaced the fuel filter inside the last 300 miles with a genuine ford item.
I have at a previous time checked the voltage at the pump, and although I don't remeber the exact figure, I do remember that the voltage value I got didn't immediately give me cause for concern.
However, I haven't rewired it. Just to make sure I don't add any confusion, Do you mean for me to;
Put in a fresh wire from the fuel pump relay all the way back to the + terminal on the fuel pump.
And put in a fresh wire all the way from the fuel pump - terminal right back to the - post on the battery?
Or is your advice to bypass the fuel pump relay altogether and take a 12v feed directly off the + terminal on the battery?
I do really appreciate any help to get her running right, but surely this would mean the pump was permanently powered up?
To answer your question, Yes. The car is running standard Boost. It peaks at .9 bar and holds nominally at .8 bar on a remote gauge.
I have replaced the phase sensor and it is gapped at 0.3 mm.
I have replaced the fuel filter inside the last 300 miles with a genuine ford item.
I have at a previous time checked the voltage at the pump, and although I don't remeber the exact figure, I do remember that the voltage value I got didn't immediately give me cause for concern.
However, I haven't rewired it. Just to make sure I don't add any confusion, Do you mean for me to;
Put in a fresh wire from the fuel pump relay all the way back to the + terminal on the fuel pump.
And put in a fresh wire all the way from the fuel pump - terminal right back to the - post on the battery?
Or is your advice to bypass the fuel pump relay altogether and take a 12v feed directly off the + terminal on the battery?
I do really appreciate any help to get her running right, but surely this would mean the pump was permanently powered up?
17-09-2009, 02:20 PM
#7
Hello, thanks for reading my post.
To answer your question, Yes. The car is running standard Boost. It peaks at .9 bar and holds nominally at .8 bar on a remote gauge.
I have replaced the phase sensor and it is gapped at 0.3 mm.
I have replaced the fuel filter inside the last 300 miles with a genuine ford item.
I have at a previous time checked the voltage at the pump, and although I don't remeber the exact figure, I do remember that the voltage value I got didn't immediately give me cause for concern.
However, I haven't rewired it. Just to make sure I don't add any confusion, Do you mean for me to;
Put in a fresh wire from the fuel pump relay all the way back to the + terminal on the fuel pump.
And put in a fresh wire all the way from the fuel pump - terminal right back to the - post on the battery?
Or is your advice to bypass the fuel pump relay altogether and take a 12v feed directly off the + terminal on the battery?
I do really appreciate any help to get her running right, but surely this would mean the pump was permanently powered up?
To answer your question, Yes. The car is running standard Boost. It peaks at .9 bar and holds nominally at .8 bar on a remote gauge.
I have replaced the phase sensor and it is gapped at 0.3 mm.
I have replaced the fuel filter inside the last 300 miles with a genuine ford item.
I have at a previous time checked the voltage at the pump, and although I don't remeber the exact figure, I do remember that the voltage value I got didn't immediately give me cause for concern.
However, I haven't rewired it. Just to make sure I don't add any confusion, Do you mean for me to;
Put in a fresh wire from the fuel pump relay all the way back to the + terminal on the fuel pump.
And put in a fresh wire all the way from the fuel pump - terminal right back to the - post on the battery?
Or is your advice to bypass the fuel pump relay altogether and take a 12v feed directly off the + terminal on the battery?
I do really appreciate any help to get her running right, but surely this would mean the pump was permanently powered up?
is the misfire intermittant? was the problem still around before the fuel consumption issue arouse?
do you know what the CO% is at idle? and i guess the ecu has no chip in it? - i have seen cars before which are classed as standard but have a stage 3 chip in the ecu!
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17-09-2009, 02:31 PM
#9
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
It does, The diagram is clear to me.
The misfire IS intermittent. And it was already doing it before I became aware of the car's drinking problem.
I don't have the CO% figure to hand, but I can tell you that at MOT in april this year it passed it's emmisions test really convincingly.
I have had the top off of the ecu, and although I couldn't say 100% it isn't a non standard one, I'm fairly sure it is. If that isn't too much of a contradiction.
The misfire IS intermittent. And it was already doing it before I became aware of the car's drinking problem.
I don't have the CO% figure to hand, but I can tell you that at MOT in april this year it passed it's emmisions test really convincingly.
I have had the top off of the ecu, and although I couldn't say 100% it isn't a non standard one, I'm fairly sure it is. If that isn't too much of a contradiction.
17-09-2009, 04:02 PM
#12
20K+ Super Poster.
It defo sounds like a fuelling issue, all the parts need to be std to work with a std chip, why has it got a FSE reg on, these are crap, and the rate of increase could be substantially different from a std cossie one.
The voltage check you did was a good idea but unfortunately this MUST be done whilst under maximum load, the 12v or whatever figure you had can easily half in value once a load is placed on it.
Personally I would just rewire using the original live feed at the pump top trigger the new relay, I would take a earth direct from the battery negative, as well as the live from there, through a fuse by the battery.
You can use 28/030 wire, as this carries 17.5 amps continuous so is plenty man enough for the job.
As a short term evaluation you could just wire direct to the battery supply and try that to see if it is any different.
tabetha
The voltage check you did was a good idea but unfortunately this MUST be done whilst under maximum load, the 12v or whatever figure you had can easily half in value once a load is placed on it.
Personally I would just rewire using the original live feed at the pump top trigger the new relay, I would take a earth direct from the battery negative, as well as the live from there, through a fuse by the battery.
You can use 28/030 wire, as this carries 17.5 amps continuous so is plenty man enough for the job.
As a short term evaluation you could just wire direct to the battery supply and try that to see if it is any different.
tabetha
17-09-2009, 05:22 PM
#13
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
As always, I appreciate any advice I can get.
To LHD220Turbo;
Found my MOT emmision sheet, and at that time, the CO% was 0.3.
I left work at 4 o'clock, and nipped to a friends garage to get him to just give me a quick emmisions check on the way home. The limit being 0.5 by the wall chart,
The car is at present 6.25%CO at idle, and 3.64% at fast idle (2000rpm) Well, I'm shitting myself now in fear of bore wash.
To Tabetha;
Hello again my friend. Based on the above, I'd have to agree wholeheartedly with you on the fse valve. I got it as I figured once I'd got to the point where I'm going for 803's and map and chip, it'd be needed to produce the required fuel. My mistake quite clearly, and as soon as I get home, it's coming off and going in the bin. Will the standard regulator do the job at 330horse? And I guess I'll need it on rollers to be able to check the potential voltage drop under load?
I'm sorry to pick but I don't quite understand this sentence, and don't want to mis-interpret your advice:
"Personally I would just rewire using the original live feed at the pump top trigger the new relay,"
Justin
To LHD220Turbo;
Found my MOT emmision sheet, and at that time, the CO% was 0.3.
I left work at 4 o'clock, and nipped to a friends garage to get him to just give me a quick emmisions check on the way home. The limit being 0.5 by the wall chart,
The car is at present 6.25%CO at idle, and 3.64% at fast idle (2000rpm) Well, I'm shitting myself now in fear of bore wash.To Tabetha;
Hello again my friend. Based on the above, I'd have to agree wholeheartedly with you on the fse valve. I got it as I figured once I'd got to the point where I'm going for 803's and map and chip, it'd be needed to produce the required fuel. My mistake quite clearly, and as soon as I get home, it's coming off and going in the bin. Will the standard regulator do the job at 330horse? And I guess I'll need it on rollers to be able to check the potential voltage drop under load?
I'm sorry to pick but I don't quite understand this sentence, and don't want to mis-interpret your advice:
"Personally I would just rewire using the original live feed at the pump top trigger the new relay,"
Justin
17-09-2009, 05:36 PM
#14
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
Ok, I'm a little stressed at present, and I think it's just a typo.
"Personally I would just rewire using the original live feed at the pump top trigger the new relay,"
"Personally I would just rewire using the original live feed at the pump TO trigger the new relay,"
Sorry. Like I said, the car's really doing my head in, I just want it right.
"Personally I would just rewire using the original live feed at the pump top trigger the new relay,"
"Personally I would just rewire using the original live feed at the pump TO trigger the new relay,"
Sorry. Like I said, the car's really doing my head in, I just want it right.
17-09-2009, 06:24 PM
#15
20K+ Super Poster.
yes it was meant to say "to" and not "top".sorry I'm always doing that typo.
You can test the voltage under load on the road, especially if you have any steep hills, just accelerate in a gear where you get max boost, after connecting some thin wire like speaker cable wire to the fuel pump, then in car to a helpful mate who can watch the voltage whilst you drive flat out up a hill, can do it on the straight and level, just watch out for bizzies!!
If you use thin speaker wire you can bare about 2 inches from the end and put this in the pump plugs before fitting them, so it squashes the cable between the connector and the post it goes on, then through a rear window to metre.
Fuel pressure regulators aren't rated like bhp, they will maintain a certain pressure in the fuel rail, most chippers keep the std pressure to make life easier, the rail doesn't know how much bhp it's running, so long as there is suffecient pressure to start with it will hold it regardless.
tabetha
You can test the voltage under load on the road, especially if you have any steep hills, just accelerate in a gear where you get max boost, after connecting some thin wire like speaker cable wire to the fuel pump, then in car to a helpful mate who can watch the voltage whilst you drive flat out up a hill, can do it on the straight and level, just watch out for bizzies!!
If you use thin speaker wire you can bare about 2 inches from the end and put this in the pump plugs before fitting them, so it squashes the cable between the connector and the post it goes on, then through a rear window to metre.
Fuel pressure regulators aren't rated like bhp, they will maintain a certain pressure in the fuel rail, most chippers keep the std pressure to make life easier, the rail doesn't know how much bhp it's running, so long as there is suffecient pressure to start with it will hold it regardless.
tabetha
17-09-2009, 06:31 PM
#16
As always, I appreciate any advice I can get.
To LHD220Turbo;
Found my MOT emmision sheet, and at that time, the CO% was 0.3.
I left work at 4 o'clock, and nipped to a friends garage to get him to just give me a quick emmisions check on the way home. The limit being 0.5 by the wall chart,The car is at present 6.25%CO at idle, and 3.64% at fast idle (2000rpm) Well, I'm shitting myself now in fear of bore wash.
Justin
To LHD220Turbo;
Found my MOT emmision sheet, and at that time, the CO% was 0.3.
I left work at 4 o'clock, and nipped to a friends garage to get him to just give me a quick emmisions check on the way home. The limit being 0.5 by the wall chart,
The car is at present 6.25%CO at idle, and 3.64% at fast idle (2000rpm) Well, I'm shitting myself now in fear of bore wash.Justin
Tabs has explained the fuel pressure reg but they are used as standard in very high hp cars (500hp plus)
17-09-2009, 07:24 PM
#17
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
right then, standard fuel reg is back on. Took it for a quick spin and unsuprisingly it feels happier on the move. Out of natural light now.
17-09-2009, 07:29 PM
#18
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
haven't room for a full and proper reply on my mobile, so will post again in the morning. But for now, thank you to you both for your advice
18-09-2009, 07:58 AM
#19
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
18-09-2009, 08:01 AM
#20
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
yes it was meant to say "to" and not "top".sorry I'm always doing that typo.
You can test the voltage under load on the road, especially if you have any steep hills, just accelerate in a gear where you get max boost, after connecting some thin wire like speaker cable wire to the fuel pump, then in car to a helpful mate who can watch the voltage whilst you drive flat out up a hill, can do it on the straight and level, just watch out for bizzies!!
If you use thin speaker wire you can bare about 2 inches from the end and put this in the pump plugs before fitting them, so it squashes the cable between the connector and the post it goes on, then through a rear window to metre.
You can test the voltage under load on the road, especially if you have any steep hills, just accelerate in a gear where you get max boost, after connecting some thin wire like speaker cable wire to the fuel pump, then in car to a helpful mate who can watch the voltage whilst you drive flat out up a hill, can do it on the straight and level, just watch out for bizzies!!
If you use thin speaker wire you can bare about 2 inches from the end and put this in the pump plugs before fitting them, so it squashes the cable between the connector and the post it goes on, then through a rear window to metre.
18-09-2009, 08:39 AM
#21
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could it be over fueling i have the same problem my ecu is funked, i've had all the signals into the ecu checked there all fine. but at idle its running 11-1 and at light throttle 10-1
its fine at full throttle 8-1. the fuel pressure is fine and original FPR. miss fires and pops and bangs on light throttle alot.
its fine at full throttle 8-1. the fuel pressure is fine and original FPR. miss fires and pops and bangs on light throttle alot.
01-10-2009, 01:26 PM
#23
Cossiemodo
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02-10-2009, 10:28 AM
#24
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The outcome at least in the first stage was that I returned the fuel reg to standard spec, and got the gas tested again. That one substitution returned the cars fueling to 2.95CO%. Within spec, and the consumption is back to acceptable levels, (I'm again achieving about 300 miles to a tank with mixed driving.) As for the mis-fire, thats still there but due to a number of 'life related' obstacles, I've not been able to A/ replace the pump wiring to the 17amp spec wire as recommended by Tabetha, nor check the security of the contacts in the cps plug, loom side. I know this is what I have to check and change first, which is why an update hasn't been put up yet. I had nothing further to tell since the last piece of advice you gave. I have however purchased a quality soldering kit, and will be tackling removing the 3 large multiplugs from the loom (the bulk head mounted ones). Time constraints have meant that now I've stopped it eating fuel, and oil and filter changed it, I'm using it off boost happy that it's not gonna implode any time very soon. Fairly slack I know, but that's where I'm at.
02-10-2009, 10:35 AM
#25
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Thread Starter
Well maintained engine's can and have surpassed that mileage with little deviation from standard spec figures for compression, economy and bearing wear. While I can only hope that my engine has led such a cherished life, the numbers on the dash can't really accurately be used to simply write off it's condition, IMO.
02-10-2009, 11:12 AM
#26
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Well, whilst I'm not saying you're wrong, I can't say I instantly agree 100% with your statement.
Well maintained engine's can and have surpassed that mileage with little deviation from standard spec figures for compression, economy and bearing wear. While I can only hope that my engine has led such a cherished life, the numbers on the dash can't really accurately be used to simply write off it's condition, IMO.
Well maintained engine's can and have surpassed that mileage with little deviation from standard spec figures for compression, economy and bearing wear. While I can only hope that my engine has led such a cherished life, the numbers on the dash can't really accurately be used to simply write off it's condition, IMO.
01-02-2010, 08:00 PM
#28
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
Right, well after a three month lay up where the fuel pump wiring, fan wiring and engine to ecu loom where replaced (amongst other stuff) for new, I took it for a spin round town, warmed up great, found a bit of dual carriageway and layed it down a bit... and it is still misfiring. I know the loom is mint so what is it?
01-02-2010, 08:13 PM
#29
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
Just to clear something up in my mind, I wanted to ask what throttle position sensor should be on it? I see that the pf01 is red, and the pf09 is black. The one on mine is a pf01, red. Could this be the source of my problem's?
01-02-2010, 08:36 PM
#30
PF01 is 2wd TPS will be ok but you need to make sure wires have been switched round as they work total opposite to each other. I think if this was fitted incorrectly car woulden't run right anywhere.
Also have you checked ignition system leads and the coil?
Martin
Also have you checked ignition system leads and the coil?
Martin
02-02-2010, 07:52 AM
#31
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
hello martin, thanks for reading. Yes, have checked ignition leads, can't remember the exact figure but they were uniform across the four plus king lead. The coil is a gen new grp A item. It's well mounted so shouldn't be any voltage problems it's directly responsible for. Mine is a 4x4, but has the 2wd TPS!! What tests can I do to it to see if the reference signal is being interrupted/breaking down when the switch is used quickly? What voltage and or ohm's am I looking for? Only reason I'm leaning towards this is the car will gain speed and pop along quite healthily if you very gently apply throttle, but if you try to quickly half or full throttle, it just misses. If the ribbons inside the tps are worn, and the reference point on the sweep arm doesn't get a clear signal of it's position, that would make it pop and fart wouldn't it?
02-02-2010, 07:58 AM
#32
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Thread Starter
last comment seems like I have a good idea now, only I'm just theorising and a new pf09 is about 80 quid. Just spent quite a chunk on other stuff only for problem to still be there the same, so need a bit of guidance.
Justin
Justin
05-02-2010, 12:30 PM
#33
Regular Contributor
Thread Starter
Hello again mate,
My car is now fitted with a complete new ecu to engine sensors loom. I've modified the route of power from the battery into the loom aswell, so that the only wire coming from the drivers side is the switch feed into the loom. The ign main relay and fuel pump now have their own fused supplies direct from the battery.
Also I have renewed the fuel pump and fan wiring.
This is all great, was time consuming to do, and honestly, driving around at low revs, the car does seem to have benefited from it. Everything just seems a little brighter and happier.... except.......
After doing all that, I have still got the misfire. If you go REALLY gently through the rev range, it will go, sort of. But if you quickly half or full throttle, no chance. Misses like a twat. Any more idea's mate?
Only parts in the system I haven't changed yet are:
TPS
Fuel Pump
Dizzy
On a plus note,
I do now have a virtually 'new' undrive-hard-able cossie.
My car is now fitted with a complete new ecu to engine sensors loom. I've modified the route of power from the battery into the loom aswell, so that the only wire coming from the drivers side is the switch feed into the loom. The ign main relay and fuel pump now have their own fused supplies direct from the battery.
Also I have renewed the fuel pump and fan wiring.
This is all great, was time consuming to do, and honestly, driving around at low revs, the car does seem to have benefited from it. Everything just seems a little brighter and happier.... except.......
After doing all that, I have still got the misfire. If you go REALLY gently through the rev range, it will go, sort of. But if you quickly half or full throttle, no chance. Misses like a twat. Any more idea's mate?
Only parts in the system I haven't changed yet are:
TPS
Fuel Pump
Dizzy
On a plus note,
I do now have a virtually 'new' undrive-hard-able cossie.
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