I am new here so a hello from me

I have tried using search to find a solution to my problem bu could not find anything. I am sorry if this has been posted before but i could not find it.

My problem is with my 1.3 1984 escort and my boyfriend!

The cam belt needed changing and he said he knew how to do it. He lined all the cams up with the notches but he didn't lock anything off. While getting the old belt off he let the cams (i think they are called) slip out of alignment (by accident). Anyway he lined them up again, put the new belt on and put everything back together. Now the car is just turning over with a (very quiet) knocking noise. He says he may have bent a valve and is going to take the engine apart to have a look.

Is it a good idea to let him do this? What could he have damaged? The car was fine before he touched it and he even said the old cam belt looked new!

Any help please?

 

Oh no never a good idea to let someone who knows nothing about engines replace a cambelt.
Its prob not timed up correctly which is why its not starting.
Worse case is the valves maybe bent which means removing the cylinder head to replace them.
Get it to someone who knows what they are doing.

 

Thats what i thought but he promised me he knew what he was doing
I think the car will be going to the garage next time no matter what he says!

 

Despite it being about the easiest engine to do, he can't do it, defo take to someone else, as it's cheaper than new valves etc.
Everyone has to learn, maybe you/he have a mate who could do it whilst you watched to get the hang of things ?
tabetha

 

oh dear you may be lucky i have replaced a snapped belt on a 1.3 and it was fine get it to a garage let them set it up and try it if your lucky it will run if not new valves will be needed

 

OK so the stupid boyfreind would be myself. After removing the cylinder head there was no damage to the valves or the pistons and there were no marks to suggest that any contact had been made.

Whilst I had the head off I replaced ALL the valves. When I took the old ones out i checked that they all moved freely and were seated properly when closed and they did. But anyway I put the new ones in and re assembled it all with new gaskets etc. everything by the book.

The timing belt was replaced again with both the crank and the cam at TDC. I turned the engine by hand about 5 times and there were no knocks and it didn't take too much effort to turn it over (just the lumpy resistance from the valve springs)

Anyway, the car is all back in one peice everything where it was I used photos to make sure and it still doesn't start! What could possibly be wrong?

WHERE I AM AT NOW is I have taken the rocker cover back off to check the the valves are opening and closing at the correct time but I dont know exactly where they are supposed to open or close so I wrote down how many degrees past TDC the valves for cylinder 1 (nearest the timing belt) open and close. See below:

Exhaust valve starts to open 100 degrees past TDC
Exhaust valvle fully open 135 degrees past TDC
Exhaust valve shuts 180 degrees past TDC
Inlet valve starts to open 190 degrees past TDC
Inlet valve fully open 250 degrees past TDC
Inlet valve shuts 280 degrees past TDC

I can also confirm that the piston in cylinder one is at the top of its stroke when the crank is at TDC (as it should be).

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY HELP! I REALLY NEED IT I CANT AFFORD TO PAY A MECHANIC! SORRY ABOUT THE LONG REPLY!

Phil

 

forgot to mention that the rotor arm on the dizzy is exactly on cylinder 1 at TDC. There is a lot of hissing noises when I turn it by hand, I originally assumed this was normal as there would be air passing through the engine rather than fuel but I just thought I would mention it. I'm completely confused. I may not have had any training and I am only 19 but I'm not a complete idiot. I really need some help though!

 

It has had clean oil and is filled to the correct level. Just to rule that out too. Im all out of ideas.

 

your timing is way out, the inlet should be near full lift at around 110degrees AFTC.
when you lined up the crank to tdc where cylinder one piston is at the top, where was the cam pulley?
it has a marker in the middle of it that should point upwards and the head even has a little hole behind the pulley which the pulley should point to.

hope that helps.

 

re reading what you've done, i think you've got the cam out of alignment some what for sure, the inlet is fully open at 250 degrees which would mean the piston has past 70degrees where the piston is coming back up and not drawing air in, so very bad, ideally you want the inlet valve closing shortly after 180degrees when the vacuum of the piston stroke has gone.

 

Thank you. I'm glad that someone could confirm for me that there is a problem with the timing, however, I did line up the arrow to the hole where the arrow points upwards. I even used a tiny screwdriver to poke in it to get it spot on. Does this mean that my timing mark is wrong? Here's where I admit that I didn't think to check before I took it off . Stupid me. Is there anyway to find TDC without using the timing mark? I have been searching since I posted on here and cant find anything.

Thanks xr2wishy

 

are you sure the bottom pulley didn't move either?
the timing pulley on the cam can only fit one way due to the woodruff key in it.
as long as the pointer in the middle points upwards then it should be right.

 

if you can get the bottom pully to tdc, i.e. piston to the top and take a pic head on of the cam pulley, i could possibly help with a pic to show the problem.

 

I'll get some pics for you asap of both pulley's. You can ignore my PM I sent it before I checked here. sorry.

Give me 15 mins.

 

no prob, basically the inlet on cylinder one, needs to be at full lift around 100-110 degrees, can't remember the exact timing, but somewhere between there.
at the moment, you've got the exhaust opening very shortly after combustion on the power stroke, and the inlet still open when the piston is coming back up, therefore pushing the fuel that it's drawn in, back into the inlet and leaving next to nothing to compress and burn.

 

OK so here's the picture of the cam and crank pulleys lined up to TDC or where I believed they should be .

THE PIC OF THE CAM PULLEY IS THE RIGHT WAY UP SO THAT ARROW IS POINTING DIRECTLY UPWARDS.

HOPE THIS HELPS

 

markings are spot on, something ain't right, pull the timing pulley off the cam and see if the woodruff key is at the top too, sounds as if the cam pulley has been off and the key's not been refitted, therefore the cam/pulley has slipped.
remove the bolt off the camshaft and check to see where the dowel is for the pulley

 

I'll give that a go now,

I wish I would have thought of that

thanks again

 

The only thing i can think of is the crank is out 360deg?

 

Just checked that (sorry about the wait, had to find something with a bit more leverage)

The key points the direct opposite direction to the timing mark but it does in the haynes manual as well, so I guess that's as it should be too...

I tried checking if it was 360 degrees out with no.1 spark plug out and my thumb in the hole to see what point it blew air at me but I may have got that wrong. Its worth a try right?

Thanks haz87

 

crank can't be 360 degrees out, there is no cam sensor, the dizzy works off cam and is crank independant.
ia can't think of anything to help without being in fron tof car, but clearly there is no compression, try setting crank to tdc and the cam so that full lift of the inlet valve is at full lift when the crank is set at 104 degrees ish, then turn by hand.
very peculiar this, especially since the thing ran before a belt change nad not after.
at TDC the inlet valve on cyl one should be opening, if not already started just before tdc.
sometimes on engines without timing marks i've had to use dial gauges, but a rough estimate of valve one just opening with cylinder at top is a good guide, if it's then still rough, just move the belt along a tooth, but check by turning twice by hand first for contact.

 

Didn't think it could be 360* out but I didn't want to sound any more thick than I already do.

I will try your method xr2wishy but I think I will have to leave it for another day, its starting to get dark and I would rather take my time and do things properly. I cant afford any more mistakes and I don't fancy taking the head off again. I'm sure I'll get there eventually!

You've been a massive help xr2wishy

Thanks

Just one last little question: Would it be worth buying a dial guage?

 

yes buy a dial gauge, very handy for valve timings, but not essential on standard pulleys.

 

Woohoo! Finally got it running! Just left it cranking over for a while and I got a splutter and it eventually started. Sounds a little sick, it would probably drive around ok but I'm guessing its a tooth out. Its not back firing just missing a bit. Anyway. i'm sure I can tweek it to get it running smooth again.

Thanks for all your help. I'll be on the road again soon!

 

what was the problem in the end?

 

Nothing really. Like I said I think its a tooth out on the timing. But I never changed anything to get it to run, it still takes forever to get it to start. Now that I have had it running though I know where to go from here.

For future reference to anyone else wanting to do a timing belt, the most fool proof way of changing the belt if the timing marks aren't spot on is as follows:

Before removing the belt use some kind of marker (e.g. tipex) that will mark both the timing belt and the pulleys. Use it to mark three teeth of both top and bottom pulleys and mark the timing belt in the exact same places. Then when you take the belt off you can transfer the marks from the old belt onto the new belt, making sure that the spacings are exact by counting the teeth on the belt. Then all you have to do is line up the markings on the new belt with the marks that you made on the pulleys earlier. It will should almost definitely be timed the way it was before with this method.

Note: Make sure you check/note the direction of rotation of both belts as you do this!

Sorry If the instructions are confusing and this is not guaranteed and I cannot be responsible for any problems. I have enough of my own!

This method works for any car and is how I was taught on my last first time successful timing belt change. I decided this car was too easy to bother, big mistake! But I have learned my lesson.

Phil

 

all you need is to mark timing pulleys, then line up afterwards is what you're saying.
the cvh though is so very easy to align, the ones that are pains are where you need to change variators on the cams and they have an adjustable pulley setup, e.g. alfa twinsparks.
the tooth out problem will be why it takes ages to start it though.

 

Ok the car is running fine now. Very happy. It's timing is set back at TDC. So now I'm really confused. It spluttered a bit at first and I ran it round a bit and now its starts first time every time. Anyway, like I said, I'm happy. I will make sure I check it next time before I take it off so I avoid all these silly problems.

Thanks for all your help. I think I'm all finished on this thread now. That's it. Done!

 

All the timing figures you gave earlier were timing relative to CAM POSITION. This is why everyone though they were strange. Timing relative to TDC should always be read from the crank pulley. Equally when you say that your cam is at TDC, this doens't make any sense. A cam doesn't have a TDC. Pistons connnected to the crank do go up and down and therefore have a top dead center. Cam is usually timed by haveing the #1 inlet valve at full lift some 110 degrees after the crank has passed its TDC.