the original

ok So let's pretend i'm making an ALS system for a cossie
at what angle relative to TDC should the spark occur?
and how is it mapped
i.e. does it change with speed etc
and what would hapeen if i moved the timing backwards and forwards?
and what effect does that have on the heat generated

any technical details greatly appreciated thanks

JesseT

The spark is way late, like 30 after at average. The later the spark, the more boost can be carried with virtually no power output, but the heat load for valves, manifold and turbine becomes very high.

the original

thanks Jesse
is fuelling kept exactly the same?
does it destroy standard cossie lambda sensors fitted in the exhaust housing of the turbo?

JesseT

Fuelling is enrichened heavily too.

sailorbob

You need a modified/replacement ISC to let enough air past the closed throttle to do this too.

the original

I am DIY Bob so i have started opening up the aperture in the ISCV (and TB)a bit at a time to see how it goes

ian sibbert

Menu : Standard Mapping
Group : BASE CALIBRATION 1 ->
Group : ALS CALIBRATION 1 ->
Map : ALS Fuel Cut (%)
Columns: Engine Speed (RPM)
Rows : Throttle Angle (ř)

600 1000 1250 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 7500
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
35.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
20.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
15.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
10.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
8.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 80.0 65.0 45.5 45.5 45.5 45.5 45.5 45.5 45.5 45.5 45.5 45.5

Menu : Standard Mapping
Group : BASE CALIBRATION 1 ->
Group : ALS CALIBRATION 1 ->
Map : ALS Ignition Angle (ř)
Columns: Engine Speed (RPM)
Rows : Throttle Angle (ř)

600 1000 1250 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 7500
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
35.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
20.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
15.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
10.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
8.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 50.0 60.0 55.0 55.0 55.0 55.0 55.0 55.0 55.0 55.0 55.0 55.0

Menu : Standard Mapping
Group : BASE CALIBRATION 1 ->
Group : ALS CALIBRATION 1 ->
Map : Recovery Fuel Cut (%)
Columns: Engine Speed (RPM)
Rows : Throttle Angle (ř)

600 1000 1250 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 7500
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
35.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
20.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
15.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
10.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
8.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0

Menu : Standard Mapping
Group : BASE CALIBRATION 1 ->
Group : ALS CALIBRATION 1 ->
Map : Recovery Ignition Angle (ř)
Columns: Engine Speed (RPM)
Rows : Throttle Angle (ř)

600 1000 1250 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 7500
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
35.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
20.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
15.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
10.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
8.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4.0| 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Menu : Standard Mapping
Group : BASE CALIBRATION 1 ->
Group : ALS CALIBRATION 1 ->
Map : ALS Valve Duty 1 (%)
Columns: Engine Speed (RPM)

1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 7500 8000 8500 9000
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90


ALS maps from a T6 if that helps matey....

The slightly modified ISCV you have there will have virtually no ALS effect....it'll pop and bang a little.....


If you want to DIY properly, I can sell you a proper valve for the ISCV. you need to remove the lower portion of the valve remove the original valve mechanism, drill and tap it at M5 then using a stainless bolt reassemble with the modified disc/valve....the machining in the throttle body is pretty straightforward if you have or know someone with a milling machine...

the original

Thanks for that info Sibster
thought the mod i did might not be enough...

Do you know the reason why they use 90% valve duty?

can't picture what you're saying about your valve mods
Do you have some pics of the parts to explain
and a price please

I don't know anyone with a milling machine, can you get it done?

does normal idling suffer when the valve is heavily modified?
I thought of using 2 valves in parallel, one standard and one heavily modified that's only brought in when the ALS is enabled, would that work?

ian sibbert

Sorry about the quality of the pic...

I mean the steel disc/valve....held into the coil body by the 5mm stainless bolt....i have several spare discs in the workshop....Ł22 incl p & p

Normal idling with a modified valve aint affected, once the engine is warm that is lol...the disc/valve blocks off the enlarged port in the throttle body to prevent any unwanted air passing at idle....

The downside of this set-up is reliabilty, they do require significant maintenance if you use the lag frequently...we regularly clean the valve with brake cleaner to prevent fouling....

The coil itself is a little undersized for the modified disc/valve and you may find after a while it doesn't lift properly.

We have tried for some time to find a decent alternative, not come across anything as yet.....

I personally would only use ALS on a competition car and really only a rally car as in most other situations you could drive round the lag problems....

ALS doesn't destroy lambda's, well not immediatly anyway, we have pectels own w/b in at all times.

I'm not a tuner so I cant help with the reason they use 90% valve duty..

HTH

Ian

jon@work

iTrader: (5)

Stu - I've got a modified throttle body and anti lag valve (as above) for sale if you need

the original

Thanks for the replies

Sibster, are you saying that the modified valve doesn't work at idle?
I agree with you that it's not strictly necessary on the road, it's just that i want to get it working to test a new system and then i'll probably take it off

markk

iTrader: (2)

once modified in the software and the valve the idle valve then becomes an als valve and has no idle functions whatso ever, a pukka mapping session can get round this


separate valves do work, but, these are not as intelligent , i.e will not switch off atomatically when used with the eweber version ecu's

the original

understood, thanks
The plan now is to use a remote standard ISCV for idling and ALSmodded ISCV in the normal position (modded TB), but this one is only enabled when ALS is active,
it's a simple DPDT switch on the ALS that brings this one in, i have it on very good authority that the ecu is comfortable supplying enough current for both...

Does that sound feasible or can anybody forsee a problem?

thanks for everybodys help

the original

I just found out it's because 90% is enough to keep the valve 100% open, any more is just wasting power and heating the solenoid
cheers

markk

iTrader: (2)

the als system ,when armed will not actually do anything until the ecu see's over 5% throttle opening then the system is active for as long as the throttle is sat closed, after a period of 10 secs if the ecu sees no throttle movement the als retard is reverted back to normal timing strategy, having a system that is 'just switched on' may cause you alot of problems with over revving the motor.

my als on stage one with no retard ( i.e valve one fully open) will give the engine approx 4500rpm with the trottle plate shut, with stage two active and no retard the engine sits on the limiter with the throttle plate closed thats how much air we flow for als

ian sibbert

Stu,

I wouldn't waste you time trying to perfect a dual valve system....just modify the throttle body, fit an ALS valve modify the ecu/software and try it....although they are competition cars mine certainly idles very smoothly without the als on...it even idles nicely with the als on lol.....

If you insist on using a dual valve system, do you plan on running both valves during als operation, DPDT switch made? and then only the normal iscv during normal running DPDT switch open?

The switch interupting the power supply to each valve?

If that is your plan i'd say it would work....

markk

iTrader: (2)

it does work ian only i use both valves for als not for idle control

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Looks like i saw this topic too late... everythings sorted. Great info boys.

Ian, when will we get the pleasure of your car again?

I dont want to go off topic but seeing your name reminds me i never gave you those pictures of your car did i?
Heres 2 tasters...

ian sibbert

Stu,

Its only bloody work getting in the way now pal....I was hoping to book it back in the week after next if that's ok with you and Kenny....

Ive got a corperate day to do on the 7th Sept....so i'd let to stretch its legs a little then...

Engine's back in, and ive done about 100 miles just to bed everything back in....

Nice pics pal....thanks again for doing so decent snaps.

Regards

Ian

markk

iTrader: (2)

the best looking escort ive ever seen, pics do it no justice what so ever , and why are you not in the garage ian ????, does olly know your on his computer

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Give me a call Monday and we will book it quietly, so Kenny doesnt get wind and pull a sicky.

markk

iTrader: (2)

kenny loves rally cars

just dont forget the annadin's

the original

Thanks Sibster, the modified valve turned up , so i can see what you mean.
should i use the spring to return the valve to 'closed' rather than gravity?
i have yet to try it on the car
but without it i was only getting -5psi instead of -11, with my piss-poor homemade valve
not getting any bangs or pops, hopefully using your valve i will get some proper results
Back to the original reason for the post, my ignition is now happening at 7 degrees ATDC, does that sound about right?