500 bhp in a std comp cossie
#41
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Exeter
Posts: 3,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by GARETH T
Before we go further, can I just make sure that I am clear - effectively the boost seen by the inlet depends on how much air can flow through both the engine and the turbo. If the turbo is small, then the pressure is effectively 'backed up', so volume is reduced, and the pressure is increased. This is why 2 bar in a T3 is different to 2 bar in a T4.
in the second half of your question,, are you asking about how to make your engine a low compression engine?
No, not really - I guess if I was going to do that, I would replace the pistons with low comp pistons.
I wanted to understand more about what makes a good engine good, particularly when building a very high power 2.0l cosworth engine. I dont mind admitting that when I next get bored, I may look for the next step, but mainly I want to understand what does what! (a big topic indeed i suspect! LOL)
So people say that Low Comp can be made to be very good indeed, I am just curious as to what makes a good one good, and what makes a bad one bad, given that Std comp is not necessarily better than low.
JJ
#42
Professional Waffler
what makes a good low compression engine, is head porting/cam profiles and timing!,,,(and of cause turbo selection)
everything must work as a package,,, alot of home built low compression engines could be make ALOT better by just having there cam timing optomised
everything must work as a package,,, alot of home built low compression engines could be make ALOT better by just having there cam timing optomised
#43
DEYTUKURJERBS
agree totally.
most people dont seem to have a clue about cams and the effects of lift and duration on boost threshold, powerband, and the engine spec they would work best in, never mind timing.
most people are like "yeah, sling BD10/BD14/BD5895607834593657 in it" but they look at you blankly if you asked why or what lift and duration they are.
most people dont seem to have a clue about cams and the effects of lift and duration on boost threshold, powerband, and the engine spec they would work best in, never mind timing.
most people are like "yeah, sling BD10/BD14/BD5895607834593657 in it" but they look at you blankly if you asked why or what lift and duration they are.
#44
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Exeter
Posts: 3,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This makes perfect sense - so really the matter is down to idiot user rather than mechanicals then.
Mind you, I wouldnt mind a crack with a pair of BD5895607834593657's. Do you recommend both inlet and exhaust?
So it sounds like the technical stuff relates to the cylinder head and what lies within. This makes sense.
But lets turn back to the turbo. Given that we know that we can create the 500bhp realtively easily by simply bolting on a massive turbo, and that by putting a small turbo on the engine it restricts the flow of air, how do the improvements on the cylinder head get over this obstacle?
JJ
Mind you, I wouldnt mind a crack with a pair of BD5895607834593657's. Do you recommend both inlet and exhaust?
So it sounds like the technical stuff relates to the cylinder head and what lies within. This makes sense.
But lets turn back to the turbo. Given that we know that we can create the 500bhp realtively easily by simply bolting on a massive turbo, and that by putting a small turbo on the engine it restricts the flow of air, how do the improvements on the cylinder head get over this obstacle?
JJ
#47
Professional Waffler
Originally Posted by RWD_cossie_wil
Don't forget that the turbo's exhaust housing has a massive effect on the engines Volumetric efficiency
#48
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Exeter
Posts: 3,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by GARETH T
the cylinder head will flow more because of less resistance
For example, if the engine was in fact a straight piece of tube connecting the inlet manifold to the exhaust housing of the turbo, then at 2bar of pressure for a given turbo, the air flow would be substantially improved over that of a cylinder head.
As above, therefore, when you increase the duration of the valve opening on the cams, you are increasing the amount of time that air can be flowed, and thus the volume efficiency. Likewise, as the lift increases, same deal.
Is this right?
If so, what is the flip side of the coin? Clearly if it was one way traffic, we would all have valves the size of dustbin lids
This is a useful topic for me - I am beginning to understand a good deal more about this subject, so thanks to all for contributing
#50
Professional Waffler
As above, therefore, when you increase the duration of the valve opening on the cams, you are increasing the amount of time that air can be flowed, and thus the volume efficiency. Likewise, as the lift increases, same deal.
cams are a twat in a 4 stroke engine
#51
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Exeter
Posts: 3,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bosch Dealer
...you want a high lift cam in....and a std (secret ) cam out ..then timed to perfection....also you want bigger inlet ports than exhaust ports
there is a fine balance between valve duration, go too much and you'll be pumping nice air straight into the exhaust because your valve overlap has increased! (both valves open at the same time) of cause you can increase cam seperation angle, but this also has downfalls, (moving peak power up higher)
cams are a twat in a 4 stroke engine
cams are a twat in a 4 stroke engine
So if the cam separation angle is increased, this leads to the peak power moving higher up the rev range. I guess this is why people then need to prep the engines to be able to rev higher to allow a more useable power band. So what sets the width of the power band out of curiosity?
I guess that the reason the inlet has to be bigger is that it does not benefit from the combustion to assist with the movement of the air and fuel into the cylinder? Would this be accurate?
JJ
#52
Professional Waffler
increased valve overlap will lead to a high boost threshold, you sort of got what i was trying to say slightly wrong!
wide cam profile = more valve overlap= raised boost threshold,
to get over the raised boost threshold, which could increase lobe seperation, but then this equals raised peak power
the inlet benefit by having the cylinder creating a higher pressure difference across the inlet valve!
wide cam profile = more valve overlap= raised boost threshold,
to get over the raised boost threshold, which could increase lobe seperation, but then this equals raised peak power
the inlet benefit by having the cylinder creating a higher pressure difference across the inlet valve!
#53
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Exeter
Posts: 3,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by GARETH T
increased valve overlap will lead to a high boost threshold, you sort of got what i was trying to say slightly wrong!
wide cam profile = more valve overlap= raised boost threshold,
to get over the raised boost threshold, which could increase lobe seperation, but then this equals raised peak power
the inlet benefit by having the cylinder creating a higher pressure difference across the inlet valve!
wide cam profile = more valve overlap= raised boost threshold,
to get over the raised boost threshold, which could increase lobe seperation, but then this equals raised peak power
the inlet benefit by having the cylinder creating a higher pressure difference across the inlet valve!
If I understand right.....
Wide cam profile = how long the valve us open (??). Is this the same as duration?
When wider, it means that the time when both valves are open is greater (?).
This raises the boost threshold - which is bad.
Boost threshold?
Must admit, I didnt get the bit about the inlet benefiting from the cylinder creating pressure difference accross the inlet valve.
Sorry for being thick
JJ
#55
Professional Waffler
like ive said before,, im not the best at explaining myself,, sorry,, its not you being thick
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm
a picture can speak a 1000 (bad ) words
yes,,,, boost threshold, is the point at which the turbo makes boost (what most people call lag,, but it isnt)
you increase lobe seperation by timing full lift further appart (advancing the cam timing) so where normally 110 degree full lift happens you time it at 115 degrees maybe
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm
a picture can speak a 1000 (bad ) words
When wider, it means that the time when both valves are open is greater (?).
This raises the boost threshold - which is bad
This raises the boost threshold - which is bad
you increase lobe seperation by timing full lift further appart (advancing the cam timing) so where normally 110 degree full lift happens you time it at 115 degrees maybe
#57
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Exeter
Posts: 3,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Phil
Thanks matey - the diff in exhaust and inlet now makes sense to me now.
Hi Gareth
That graph is very useful indeed . I will have a read of the article right now.
I appreciate you taking the time to try to explain it to me at all
Now you explain it, I do remember boost threshold, so that now makes sense. Clearly this is exactly the opposite of part of what we are trying to achieve.
Lets leave cams to one side for a moment.
HOw much difference does the porting of the head make on its own.
Lets take my engine for example (more so I can take as read what I have already).
Lets say that all other things generally remain equal (ie comp ratio).
Lets say that my engine produces 400bhp on std comp.
So now, I port the head (both inlet and exhaust sides) to improve the flow as much as possible. BUT at this stage, everything else remains the same.
Assume that the map is re-optimised to avoid problems, what will happen overall to the engine?
As I see it, this will effectively improve the air flow through the engine, and as such, 2 Bar from the turbo will be at a greater volume.
Correct?
JJ
Thanks matey - the diff in exhaust and inlet now makes sense to me now.
Hi Gareth
That graph is very useful indeed . I will have a read of the article right now.
I appreciate you taking the time to try to explain it to me at all
Now you explain it, I do remember boost threshold, so that now makes sense. Clearly this is exactly the opposite of part of what we are trying to achieve.
Lets leave cams to one side for a moment.
HOw much difference does the porting of the head make on its own.
Lets take my engine for example (more so I can take as read what I have already).
Lets say that all other things generally remain equal (ie comp ratio).
Lets say that my engine produces 400bhp on std comp.
So now, I port the head (both inlet and exhaust sides) to improve the flow as much as possible. BUT at this stage, everything else remains the same.
Assume that the map is re-optimised to avoid problems, what will happen overall to the engine?
As I see it, this will effectively improve the air flow through the engine, and as such, 2 Bar from the turbo will be at a greater volume.
Correct?
JJ
#58
Professional Waffler
you will more likely improve you peak power,,, but it could cost you bottom end torque because the air speed will be slower through the larger ports
#59
.......ports are opened up for increased flow at high rpm and camshaft timing and lifts are increased...both of which kill off low rpm torque/power/fuel economy....If you can consume 2bar at std port sizes i'd stay std!
#62
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
Went out in my 6.8:1,bd16 inlet and exhaust ,t4,8 greens good old fashioned
rs 500 touring car specced ,motor today.......................Fooooooooook me!
puddy
rs 500 touring car specced ,motor today.......................Fooooooooook me!
puddy
#63
10K+ Poster!!
Originally Posted by puddy
Went out in my 6.8:1,bd16 inlet and exhaust ,t4,8 greens good old fashioned
rs 500 touring car specced ,motor today.......................Fooooooooook me!
puddy
rs 500 touring car specced ,motor today.......................Fooooooooook me!
puddy
#64
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
Originally Posted by rapidcossie
Originally Posted by puddy
Went out in my 6.8:1,bd16 inlet and exhaust ,t4,8 greens good old fashioned
rs 500 touring car specced ,motor today.......................Fooooooooook me!
puddy
rs 500 touring car specced ,motor today.......................Fooooooooook me!
puddy
his focus cossie..............loved your motor
puddy
#65
10K+ Poster!!
Originally Posted by puddy
Originally Posted by rapidcossie
Originally Posted by puddy
Went out in my 6.8:1,bd16 inlet and exhaust ,t4,8 greens good old fashioned
rs 500 touring car specced ,motor today.......................Fooooooooook me!
puddy
rs 500 touring car specced ,motor today.......................Fooooooooook me!
puddy
his focus cossie..............loved your motor
puddy
#66
PassionFord Post Whore!!
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 6,150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rapidcossie
Originally Posted by puddy
Went out in my 6.8:1,bd16 inlet and exhaust ,t4,8 greens good old fashioned
rs 500 touring car specced ,motor today.......................Fooooooooook me!
puddy
rs 500 touring car specced ,motor today.......................Fooooooooook me!
puddy
#68
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Exeter
Posts: 3,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Originally Posted by Bosch Dealer
If you can consume 2bar at std port sizes i'd stay std!
Is this correct?
JJ
#69
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
Originally Posted by JjCoDeX75
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Originally Posted by Bosch Dealer
If you can consume 2bar at std port sizes i'd stay std!
Is this correct?
JJ
Lol, yes thats pretty much it.
The engines does NOT consume 2 bar of boost, EVER, thats the whole point, the 2 bar of pressure in the manifold represents the air that could NOT be consumed, and has no direct relationship at all to a measurement of how much was consumed.
At least this thread is managing to help you grasp the basics if only because Phil gets it SO badly wrong that it makes it easy to see why he is wrong, even to a relative lay-person
#70
...Chip you have no idea mate
...what you KNOW i meant was if your YB can see 2bar from a T4 without surge you do not need to open the ports
..i dont care where you see 2bar..on your boost gauge..on your penis...on a sign held up by a passing Granny..thats what i MEANT..stop twisting its childish
Everything i have said on this thead is CORRECT its you trying to be too technical that confuses it!
...what you KNOW i meant was if your YB can see 2bar from a T4 without surge you do not need to open the ports
..i dont care where you see 2bar..on your boost gauge..on your penis...on a sign held up by a passing Granny..thats what i MEANT..stop twisting its childish
Everything i have said on this thead is CORRECT its you trying to be too technical that confuses it!
#71
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
* Yawn *
Phil mate you cant even manage the one post in which you said everything was correct without typing misleading crap, let alone an entire thread
Seriously Phil, just stick to threads you actually understand mate, it really would benefit the community as a whole, you are only adding confusion in here with the way you interchange the words boost and airflow, especially when you starting making out its other people saying it in fact you actually went as far as to say:
Neither one of us said anything of the fucking sort as we are both TOTALLY aware of enormous fucking gap between boost and airflow, if you would just stay away from threads like this it would be a LOT less confusing for peopel reading them as they wouldnt have to wade through all your the misunderstood crap that you spew up onto the forum in incorrect places.
Seriously, just stick to your funny little threads about shagging mikeR and Pon and keep away from the stuff you dont understand.
Originally Posted by Bosch Dealer talking irrelevant crap thats not going to help JJ
...what you KNOW i meant was if your YB can see 2bar from a T4 without surge you do not need to open the ports
Originally Posted by Bosch Dealer in the same post
Everything i have said on this thead is CORRECT its you trying to be too technical that confuses it!
Seriously Phil, just stick to threads you actually understand mate, it really would benefit the community as a whole, you are only adding confusion in here with the way you interchange the words boost and airflow, especially when you starting making out its other people saying it in fact you actually went as far as to say:
...Simon i am just mythed by chip and stavros's limited knowledge on boost! Confus ...to them 2bar is 2bar of airflow whatever turbo
Seriously, just stick to your funny little threads about shagging mikeR and Pon and keep away from the stuff you dont understand.
#73
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
Originally Posted by Bosch Dealer
you cant accept i am a forum user with my own style..STOP THE HATING.
Your 'style' is to wander around and shit little nuggets of crap information randomly all over threads, and no I dont want to accept you doing it on what should have been a useful disucssion
#75
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Exeter
Posts: 3,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A quick time out please guys!
Lets just agree that all people are at least trying to help a dullard like me! I dont want to lose the topic completely to old arguments
So back on topic......
So we have established that the exhaust cam that Ford make in fact does a bloody good job. However, I note that a number of people will then change the inlet cam.
Given that we know that if we mess about the zorst cam we can screw up the Boost threshold, what would be the down side of fitting an inlet cam with greater lift or duration?
JJ
Lets just agree that all people are at least trying to help a dullard like me! I dont want to lose the topic completely to old arguments
So back on topic......
So we have established that the exhaust cam that Ford make in fact does a bloody good job. However, I note that a number of people will then change the inlet cam.
Given that we know that if we mess about the zorst cam we can screw up the Boost threshold, what would be the down side of fitting an inlet cam with greater lift or duration?
JJ
#77
Professional Waffler
remember you could run the inlet cam slight advanced and the exhaust cam at standard timings ,
you can play about with cam phasing alot
the problem with talking about cams i find is that we never look at the complete picture as we (I ) forget another part of the operation,,, sometimes its better just to trial and error
you can play about with cam phasing alot
the problem with talking about cams i find is that we never look at the complete picture as we (I ) forget another part of the operation,,, sometimes its better just to trial and error
#78
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Exeter
Posts: 3,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by GARETH T
remember you could run the inlet cam slight advanced and the exhaust cam at standard timings ,
you can play about with cam phasing alot
the problem with talking about cams i find is that we never look at the complete picture as we (I ) forget another part of the operation,,, sometimes its better just to trial and error
you can play about with cam phasing alot
the problem with talking about cams i find is that we never look at the complete picture as we (I ) forget another part of the operation,,, sometimes its better just to trial and error
JJ
#80
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Exeter
Posts: 3,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bosch Dealer
Advancing the exhaust cam and retarding the inlet cam moves the peak torque down the rpm range
Trying to deal more in theory rather than practice, so that I get a grip with the principals really
JJ