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Mk6 JWRC fiesta cosworth

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Old 02-05-2015, 09:05 AM
  #3841  
frayz
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Originally Posted by M K
It's on the chunky side but never expected it to be light with all the cage work

With me and 45 Litres of fuel its roughly 1300kg

It has been set up geometry wise with a passenger in weighing the same as me as mostly have somebody in it on track days so with that it's around 1390kg
That's not heavy at all inc driver and 45kg of fuel Marc. What's the car weigh on its own without you? 1180kg ish
Old 02-05-2015, 09:32 AM
  #3842  
M K
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1211kg I think it was

Il get the sheet with all the info when I pick the car up
Old 02-05-2015, 12:15 PM
  #3843  
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I'm dreaming of a weight that low! Haha
Old 02-05-2015, 12:46 PM
  #3844  
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Real top work this car! Is it a track car or will you use it on the road as well
Old 02-05-2015, 03:44 PM
  #3845  
M K
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Will be road legal with mot and tax but predominantly track
Old 02-05-2015, 03:48 PM
  #3846  
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Originally Posted by M K
1211kg I think it was

Il get the sheet with all the info when I pick the car up
Not too bad at all. Ka is 1080kg with 40litres of fuel in it
Old 02-05-2015, 06:38 PM
  #3847  
M K
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I'm happy with it yeah

I can always look at weight saving further down the line as said
Old 05-05-2015, 01:13 PM
  #3848  
M K
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Couple more pics curtesy of MDV

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Just waiting on some new hubcentric spacers to bring the front wheels in slightly as they currently stick out just past the arch, and the bolt on hubcentric spacers can't be machine, and for a fella to stop in to MDV and wire in my Life racing calibration switch then I think that's it

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Old 05-05-2015, 02:14 PM
  #3849  
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it does look bloody nice that
Old 05-05-2015, 02:49 PM
  #3850  
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Imagine if Ford produced that as an RS model....That would fly out of the dealers. I know I would want one.
Old 05-05-2015, 04:49 PM
  #3851  
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Awesome mate looks like a model in that last shot
Old 07-05-2015, 04:29 PM
  #3852  
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Great thread Marc, been reading through it the last few weeks everytime i got a chance. Amazing car man, wish i had the dedication you have! It will all be worth it when your done and finished

Cant wait to hear it out on the road, you'll have to post up a vid

Good luck!
Old 07-05-2015, 09:04 PM
  #3853  
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Cheers people

Going to look fora decent second hand go pro or similar to take some footage
Old 08-05-2015, 10:39 AM
  #3854  
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go pro are hard to beat for quality but if you just want something cheap i've seen people using these and they're actually pretty good despite the price.

here's an example of the quality

I personally use go pro but I'm considering getting one of those ebay ones as an extra

Last edited by prodigymotorsport; 08-05-2015 at 10:46 AM. Reason: embeded youtube not showing
Old 08-05-2015, 03:34 PM
  #3855  
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GO Pro for clarity and wider viewing angle, I would just make sure you go with the newest version.

We also use Replay Xd's
-great battery life
-good video
-won't matter to you but aerodynamic
-great price


Last edited by thielt1; 08-05-2015 at 03:42 PM.
Old 09-05-2015, 12:46 PM
  #3856  
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Cheers guys

Il have a look at them as options
Old 09-05-2015, 07:20 PM
  #3857  
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Just gone through this thread start to end and its taken me hours!! Loved every minute of it! Just simply stunning and an absolute credit to you and all involved!!
Old 10-05-2015, 12:41 AM
  #3858  
M K
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Thanks mate
Old 10-05-2015, 01:52 AM
  #3859  
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Originally Posted by Caddyshack
Imagine if Ford produced that as an RS model....That would fly out of the dealers. I know I would want one.
By the time it had been productionised, design qc and reliability tested plus overheads and labour costs you would probably be looking 6 figure cost easy.
Old 10-05-2015, 07:53 AM
  #3860  
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same as its cost me then
Old 11-05-2015, 09:15 PM
  #3861  
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Cars was delivered back today

Here is the set up sheet from MDV for anyone interested

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Hopefully Mot next week
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Old 11-05-2015, 09:29 PM
  #3862  
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Mot next week?

Fuck me. How good does that feel?
Is it getting motd as "a modified fiesta"?
As in just a normal mot?
Do you need an Iva or sva for it?

Good luck for next week. Can't imagine how excited you are lol.
Old 11-05-2015, 09:32 PM
  #3863  
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On the geo sheet above it says "arb fully soft"
Are the bladed ones adjustable then? Is that what all the holes are for in the uprights?

Got any pics?
As I need to make an arb for the rear of my car. I might go down this route.

Also what's a rough cost for a full grown setup like yours?
And did they measure your sprung/unsprung weights to fund out what spring ratings you should be using?

Cheers
Old 12-05-2015, 03:19 PM
  #3864  
M K
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Originally Posted by stu21t
Mot next week?

Fuck me. How good does that feel?
Is it getting motd as "a modified fiesta"?
As in just a normal mot?
Do you need an Iva or sva for it?

Good luck for next week. Can't imagine how excited you are lol.

Yeah nice knowing it's close to drive able


It will be Mot'd as the logbook States but tester will have to make note of engine swap and il give receipt of 1991 4x4 cosworth donor engine so emissions test will be pre 1992 non cat test

Once mot'd I will tax it as per the log book as a 1.4 diesel then il send of the logbook with engineers report and copy of mot proving car is converted to high standard etc and swap log book details and change tax bracket to a 2.0l petrol

No need for Iva or sva as it still retains original bodywork and light positions and heights etc even though it has wider arches
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Old 12-05-2015, 03:24 PM
  #3865  
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Yes blades are adjustable

Think of bending a ruler,

If you bend it when flat its soft and easy to bend, at a 45 angle it's slightly harder and if it's on its side it's solid almost, that's how the blades on the wrc roll bars work,


Spring rates were chosen by me after talking to Ali, who owns the bright orange jwrc fiesta cosworth with the 650bhp engine as that's what he runs so we chose that as a starting point and I will get used to the car and go from there with adjustments to rates and set up etc


As for cost it really depends what you want exactly so hard to compare and give a price on mate

Hope that helps

Thanks
Marc
Old 12-05-2015, 03:28 PM
  #3866  
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Marc you are welcome to borrow my go pro (hero 3+ black) if you want to see how it fairs before plunging in and buying one. Ive also got the bracket to mount on the front bumper! I can bring it to Kels wedding at the weekend....!

Chris
Old 12-05-2015, 04:41 PM
  #3867  
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Yeah ok
Would be good
Old 12-05-2015, 05:25 PM
  #3868  
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Keep it as a 1.4 diesel on the log book cause it will only be 30 quid a year tax won't it???? Only joking.
Old 12-05-2015, 06:55 PM
  #3869  
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It's tempting mate lol
Old 13-05-2015, 08:44 AM
  #3870  
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Cheers mate, that's good to know about the Iva/sva/mot ive always done mine on a normal mot but didn't know if that was right or not lol.


I saw 1 of these earlier, thought it might interest you.
Ł30 camera with a 3yr warranty.
https://www.aldi.co.uk/en/specialbuys/thur-14-may/product-detail/ps/p/action-camcorder/
Old 13-05-2015, 12:50 PM
  #3871  
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Cheers mate

May grab 1 of them if I can get to an aldi's
Old 13-05-2015, 03:01 PM
  #3872  
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I'm probably going to get one too. I drive passed one on my way to work.
I can always grab you one and post it if you can't get to the shop.
Old 13-05-2015, 06:11 PM
  #3873  
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Originally Posted by M K
No need for Iva or sva as it still retains original bodywork and light positions and heights etc even though it has wider arches
many kit car replicas retain original light and bodywork yet need iva.
Originally Posted by stu21t
Cheers mate, that's good to know about the Iva/sva/mot ive always done mine on a normal mot but didn't know if that was right or not lol.
You will get away with it on a normal MoT as no MoT tester can "prove" the chassis was modified extensively without having been tested at some point in the past - they arent testing for that. But they do have a mechanism to refer it to DVLA/VOSA if they think its no longer the same car in identity terms.

Following the letter of the law it needs an IVA plain and simple because it is an extensively modified monococque chassis. I did a lot of research into it when i wanted to make my puma cossie into a carbon floored car.

It comes under as a "radically altered/rebuilt vehicle".

You also wont have enough parts on it to get enough points to retain its current ID or get an age related ID so you'd Probably end up on a q plate as youve got some new and some second hand parts and to get a new plate youd need 100% new apart from one recon'd part such as an engine.

However in practice, again most testers arent interested in "undateable" componants as theres no way of knowing which car they come from etc. They are primarily interested in chassis, engine, axles etc.

However in practice who is going to know? the chance of getting pulled by a VOSA van is slim in a road car like yours. The police wont have a clue so are no threat either.



The correct way to have done it would be for AG motorsport to invoice you with an "ag motorsport cosworth chassis" as a new item with no id. You could easily get enough pattern parts but it doesnt matter if its new metal for the non structural panels really.

You then have a new chassis, you can either use all new parts with one recon'd bit (eg engine) and get a new reg, or use an actual cossie as the donor for engine, box, steering, brakes etc - I think its 8 points you need. and youd end up on an age related plate - age related to the cossie donor v5 you have. Then of course strip it and put on the fancy stuff.

Ironically there is NO record at IVA what parts are on the car, so any modifications post test cannot be used against you unless obviously dangerous and wouldbt have passed. That means once you have the MAC you can pretty much modify all you want and no mot tester or police can prove it wasnt on the car at IVA. Great for exhaust noise as many forces are attempting prosecutions at 83db where as IVA is 99db and hence you have the get out of jail clause if some copper wants to be arsey.




The problem with not IVA'ing it is that the MoT is getting stricter on non-factory mods and while still in europe will continue to do so and could quite easily in a few years mean it simply cant pass without TUV or similar oem type approval on modifications. However as long as they allow kit cars on the road, the IVA means the aftermarket parts stand on thier own merit if they pass the test without the need for mass type approval.
Old 14-05-2015, 08:56 AM
  #3874  
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Originally Posted by Psycho Warren
many kit car replicas retain original light and bodywork yet need iva.

Following the letter of the law it needs an IVA plain and simple because it is an extensively modified monococque chassis. I did a lot of research into it when i wanted to make my puma cossie into a carbon floored car.

It comes under as a "radically altered/rebuilt vehicle".

You also wont have enough parts on it to get enough points to retain its current ID or get an age related ID so you'd Probably end up on a q plate as youve got some new and some second hand parts and to get a new plate youd need 100% new apart from one recon'd part such as an engine.
From the research I've done into this the points system only relates when you are applying for a new registration which is not necessary in this case as the car already has one, although I have to admit that there's a lot of conflicting information on the subject and it does seem to be a bit of a grey area.

There was a discussion in this thread about SVMs Qashqai R which has a GT-R floor and running gear mated to a qashqai body.
The (heated) discussion starts around page 29 I think, after talking to the DVLA and VOSA about what they need to do and an "inspection" of the car, this was the outcome.

"The guys at Vosa and Peeps at DVLA are all happy bunnies

A lengthy file of documents were presented to the DVLA and they have kindly agreed to register on the Qashqai log book using the Qashqai registration number

The Tax will be that of a GTR

Who said different? (come on line up) lol

No Test Req ....I'll say it again No Test req"

Other than the changes on the log book they don't show any of the correspondence between themselves and DVLA/VOSA so it's impossible to say how true it is but I can't imagine they'd lie about it.

Before I read that I was under the same impression as you where it would need to be tested and given a Q plate. After reading that I'm leaning more towards no test being required as the car already has an identity but I'll definitely be checking with DVLA/VOSA before starting a project like this and point them in the direction of that thread if needs be just to be sure.
Old 14-05-2015, 04:44 PM
  #3875  
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It depends on how honest they were.

It is quite clearly written for radically altered vehicles/rebuilt vehicles and reshells about a modified or second hand monococque.

Modifying the suspension points and leaving the main structure intact is one thing, cutting the whole floor out is clearly a bit more major!!

The points thing is to keep age related plate - in essence enough of one vehicle on the rebuilt vehicle to confirm its identity. Use parts from different cars and q plate. all q plate means is indeterminate origin of the parts or parts from more than one donor.

The association of car enthusiasts went to a lot of length talking to DVLA and VOSA and this is the replies:

“When assessing a modified/rebuilt vehicle, DVLA’s main interest is to establish whether the original identity has been compromised by the changes made. If a vehicle has been modified from the original manufacturer’s specification or if not enough of the original components have been retained in the build, the vehicle identity will change and IVA will be required to register with an alternative registration number.

Due to the very nature of rebuilding or modifying vehicles from their original manufacturer’s specification, DVLA assesses each vehicle on its own merits based on the documentary evidence provided and a physical inspection of the vehicle.

The INF 26 information leaflet, and the information given on the website, is issued as a guideline to the registration of rebuilt, radically altered or kit converted vehicles. They are not meant as technical guides. However, both clearly indicate that if modifications are made to the chassis or monocoque bodyshell, or if the build does not include enough original, major components (as listed) the identity of the vehicle will change.
The information on www.direct.gov.uk is regularly reviewed to reflect changes in legislation

VOSA have provided the following response to your questions;

Chassis.

Q) What is classed as chassis? Is it purely the outer longitudinal rails or are the crossmembers between these also a part of the chassis?

A) Chassis should be taken to include crossmembers.

Q) We know that cutting or shortening a chassis is classed as modification but is this relative to the vehicle wheelbase i.e. the chassis must remain uncut between the 2 axles but anything forward of front or aft of rear suspension mounts can be removed?

A) Chassis includes the full original length of the longitudinal members including to the front of the front axle and to the rear of the rear axle.

Q) Is it acceptable to remove bodymounts, which contribute no strength to the chassis when changing a body to a different style /make?

A) Yes, providing they are additional to and are not an integral part of the chassis structure.

Q) Is it acceptable to strengthen a chassis by the addition of boxing plates a process that involves turning a 3-sided open chassis rail into a fully enclosed ‘box’ chassis?

A) Yes, providing the original structure remains unchanged.

Monococque.

Q) What is the definition of a monococque ?

A) A design in which body and chassis are all one unit.

Q) Why does cutting into a monococque affect the vehicle identity if it retains the same shape /profile as before.

A) Cutting is considered to be modifying the vehicle from its original specification. Any modification to the chassis/monocoque body is considered to render the vehicle no longer original specification or of original identity.

Q) Is it acceptable to modify a vehicle bulkhead and/or transmission tunnel when performing an engine change or fitting another make?

A) No, Assuming this is in relation to a monocoque structure. This would be considered a modification to the structure.


Q) Is it acceptable to fully weld sections that are spot-welded as part of the original construction methods, to increase the strength of the body?

A) Yes, providing the original structure is retained.

ACE felt that further clarification was needed from VOSA so we sent more questions.

The following responses are from the VOSA Press Office:-

The answers to our chassied vehicle rules queries seem mainly straightforward, However, we have further questions based on the answers supplied.

Q) As chassis strengthening is allowed, are we correct in assuming that additional crossmembers would also be allowed?

A) It is important that the original chassis structure is retained unmodified, and while it is acceptable to strengthen areas and include additional brackets or crossmembers, It would be limited to additions within the existing chassis frame structure. Additional chassis structures, i.e. extending the outward parameters of the original chassis structure would be considered a modification.

Q) It is the monococque rules that need the most clarification.
Your reply states that any cutting of the monococque” is considered to render the vehicle identity no longer original specification or of original identity “. This would suggest that any crash repairs necessitating cutting and removal of panels or chassis sections, or restoration work would call the vehicle’s identity into question?

We presume that the point should really be that any cutting… other than in factory designed joining areas…would be the actual criteria?

A) In this respect it is necessary to differentiate between modification and repair. Any repair process that is in line with manufacturer’s recommendations and that returns the structure to its original specification would not be considered to be a modification.

Q) Would the modification of wings to allow clearance for larger wheels fall foul of the regulations?

We presume not as the common fitment of sunroofs does not create issues as this is a non stressed item of the monococque, the same as wings?”

A) When considering a monocoque structure, it is necessary to consider what constitutes cosmetic panels that do not significantly add to the structural strength and which panels provide structural integrity. In general front wings modified in this way would not constitute a modification to the monocoque structure.

With reference to the further query, VOSA have advised that they would prefer the following statement:

What constitutes a monocoque is that of how an OEM manufacturer would view it. The chassis or `cage` assembly and all components that form it, less any cosmetic panels or infills that make no structural consideration to the monocoque or its component parts.
However, we must emphasis that this information is given for general guidance and each case will be judged on its merits.

So unless DVLA/VOSA have changed the rules in the last couple of years then the SVM car was put together with some judicial bending of the truth to retain the ID.
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Old 14-05-2015, 05:58 PM
  #3876  
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I spoke to MDV a few times today, nice people and Peter is ex ford Motorsport, my car is going in too.
Old 15-05-2015, 08:32 AM
  #3877  
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Originally Posted by Psycho Warren
It depends on how honest they were.

It is quite clearly written for radically altered vehicles/rebuilt vehicles and reshells about a modified or second hand monococque.

Modifying the suspension points and leaving the main structure intact is one thing, cutting the whole floor out is clearly a bit more major!!

The points thing is to keep age related plate - in essence enough of one vehicle on the rebuilt vehicle to confirm its identity. Use parts from different cars and q plate. all q plate means is indeterminate origin of the parts or parts from more than one donor.

The association of car enthusiasts went to a lot of length talking to DVLA and VOSA and this is the replies:




So unless DVLA/VOSA have changed the rules in the last couple of years then the SVM car was put together with some judicial bending of the truth to retain the ID.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. As I said there seems to be a lot of conflicting information on the subject. Like you say though, unless the rules have changed it's very hard to argue with that.
Old 15-05-2015, 09:22 AM
  #3878  
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Originally Posted by Caddyshack
I spoke to MDV a few times today, nice people and Peter is ex ford Motorsport, my car is going in too.
They seem do a good job
What you having done mate
Old 15-05-2015, 09:29 AM
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Caddyshack
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Originally Posted by MK MOTORSPORT
They seem do a good job
What you having done mate
Not sure yet, I need to get the car back on the road and then send to the trimmers before the geo can be done so will be a little while yet.
Old 15-05-2015, 11:23 AM
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Psycho Warren
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Sorry for ruining your thread MK!

Originally Posted by prodigymotorsport
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. As I said there seems to be a lot of conflicting information on the subject. Like you say though, unless the rules have changed it's very hard to argue with that.
I did the research because although people have got away with it for years, it seems that people have just been lucky that the authorities have turned a blind eye and arent really interested. Pretty much all cossie conversions would fall foul. My puma cossie i had to do a lot of digging into it but luckily he used a brand new monococque and on paper no structural parts were cut out. He passed off the tunnel as an enlargement of the "non structural" exhaust tunnel. The engine is as far back as possible without cutting bulkhead - cutting bulkhead is key as in the quote above and the suspension mounts are actually added onto the metal already there which counts as strenthening so technically mine got re registered as reshell with new shell. Then it was built up after the visual inspection and stamping of the SABTVR dvla issued vin. At least pumaspeed clearly did a bit of thinking about it when they built it. However most arent built like that.

With the way the Mot is going and the way modifications are being viewed by EU because of type approval issues, its likely to get worse for us here over the coming years.

Last thing you want is VOSA yanking your V5 a few years down the road until youve done an IVA then ended up on a q plate.

If youre building from scratch anyway, its not hard to build most things to meet IVA anyway and if you bend the rules very slightly you should in most cases keep a age related plate and be totally legal no matter what they do in the future. Sorting it all retrospectively is much harder as they tend to take a hard line and look at it like youve been evading them for years deliberately.

They did the same when SVA first came out on all the kit cars still using the donor car ID.

Last edited by Psycho Warren; 15-05-2015 at 11:30 AM.


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