simonc

Mikeyxr2i they don't make auto M3's , all manuals

Simon.

Rich_w

Technically a SMG equiped car only has 2 pedals and is classed as an Auto on the log book. And a person with an Auto only license can drive one

Dan

Sorry but why do Cossie owners seem to rate their cars against something that is a totally different and/or less superior machine!

You never hear of people coming on saying they wasted skylines and supra's and the like, yet you all love it when some wanker in a saxo has a pop and you totally blow it into submission, I mean FFS my 2.0ltr rover beats those shitboxes in a straight line, and I aint a bad driver down country lanes either having lived down them for 21 yrs now!

The 2 cars (M3 & Cos) are totally fookin different!

Oh, and I dare say that the M3 (un-restricted) is faster top end than 'most' cossies! (Rod's not included)!

simonc

Quite right about SMG

Simon.

DazC

iTrader: (1)

There is a lot of shit posted in this topic!

Dan

I know Daz, it's the age old thing tho aint it, my X is always gonna be better than your X etc etc!

Peeps aint really getting anywhere with this thread are they!

Rich_w

No we have. We've established whose got the biggest willy. Whose full of shit. And who doesnt give a monkey.

Have you bought that GT yet?

And


Why not?

Rippers

I haven't even posted yet!

To be fair I own a E46 M3 and I don't proclaim to be the fastest or its eats this its eats that. Reason being is every race is different, cars are at different stages and driving ability always comes into play.
I'll just have a go at anything that looks naughty and see how it goes, they beat me you get a thumbs up I beat them I justify Ł500+ pcm
Raced my mate 320bhp Subaru which was just about even without sports button, but with I owned him
Raced an standard EVO6 they much be shit in standard form
Raced a DB9 and that was a fairly even race he would pull a few car lengths on me but he couldn't lose me
Got owned by a Mercedes AMG CLK the other day thou
Not raced a Cossie yet so maybe Performance Ford and Performance BMW might like to take us to Brunters

DazC

iTrader: (1)

This is how I see it and my opinion...

The M3 is always going to be a better built car, nicer to drive and live with on a day to day basis, more reliable and newer. Let's face it the 'newer' fact is always going to help reliability.

Why are we comparing an old Sapphire to an E36 M3? If you want to start picking holes in the fact a stage 3 car beat a similar powered M3 the surely we should be comparing a standard Escort Cos to a standard M3?

I have a Motorsport Developments built engine which you could probably say it was a stage 4+ build. What do I compare my car to? At the minute, a Clio 172 is about all my car can keep with. But should I only be comparing a modified 172 to my 170 ish BHP Escort? The fact that I have spent a fotune in preparing it for a big power increase is irrelevant, should I pitch it against Tim's RST just because I have a similarish spec engine?

Why people come out with the old "yes but put your modified car against a modified variant of what ever you raced!"? It's irrelevant! Compare cars by power for power, driver skill for driver skill, individual cars for individual cars.

If all you lot are going to do is rip into somepone for pitching his modified car against a standard car which has more power to start with then we might as well all just buy standard cars and only pitch them against similar standard cars.

Before a race commences what do you do? Open your window and ask him if he has a standard car on not because you might get the piss taken out of you for racing a standard car in your modified car even if you have a similar power output?

EIL132

What I was getting at is that beating an M3 holds about as much glory as beating a Fiat Panda. They are not that fast, a decent RST would beat it in a straight line, apart from maybe top end. However at least you know with the M that it is a better car all round and if people took there blinkers off they would to. It's exactley the same as with Porkies Boxter, beating it in a straight line ain't hard, but it doesn't make it a shite car, but most people see it as that just because it doesn't hit 180 up Brunters. If beating my car is such a big deal the it's got more kudos than I thought

Ginge !

having driving a z4 3.0 and a 350z all brand new and standard i have to say my cossie is a little bit quicker on acceleration BUT ive never been able to sit at 130 and change lanes like im doing 80 in the cossie, in the 350z i was doing 130 and is was soo quiet inside i thought i was doing 90, accelerates alot nicer at top speeds too, the bmw was just too nice but the bonnet is too fooking long

but 130 with the roof down it mental, considering the stereo goes louder too

oh and who ever say about racing a t34 stage 3 cossie with 20 psi ,,,,,,,,,,,, thats restricting the cossie as moist run 25psi

but i would rather have a M3 as they look better

DazC

iTrader: (1)

Agreed. The M3 is an all round better car...

Ginge !

thats not hard considering we are omparing it to a old foird sierra

heres another fact, lambo and ferrari are better cars

people need to remove the ford blinkers


oh and how many M3 replicas are there out there that people have beat in races too

Rich_w

I wondered that too

Rippers

There is a guy local to me with E36 m3 replica and its is soo close to the real thing down to the seats, dash and even has a M3 number plate, infact the only way you can tell is the sound of the shonky 1.8 engine its has with its pea shooter exhaust

TurboNutter

Aggreed... and also tiny front brakes are another give away...

Having read this thread, i can see things from other points of view... Personally, i do like the M3's, the older shape ones like EIL132's, i fact i very nearly brought one before i got the cos... only reason i didn't was because i couldn't get it insured.... At the end of the day thou, if we all drove the same cars it would be boring.. right??

EIL132

Never thought of that

xr2i-carl

nah what you chatting about standard m3 is only like 5.5 to 60 saff cossie stage 1 would kill an m3

RichardPON

carl - take your blinkers off mate.

I've personally raced an M3 at Santa Pod, in my saff 2wd T3, and greens, and there was NOTHING in it.

What on earth do you think a stage 1 2wd car does to 60 then?

xr2i-carl

i have a magazine from ealry nineties where they timed standard and stage 1-3 escort cossies a stage 1 esc cos hit 4.8 to 60 surely a saff woudl be only maximum half second slower than that?

xr2i-carl

im talin e36 m3 not new 1

RichardPON

So am I.

I've raced it at the Pod - I can happily post the timing slips for ya........

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

ffs some people take things soooo seriously .. all i did was say i beat an m3 in a bit of a tussle (that he started)... next thing its all going silly

RichardPON

Yeah, but Pete, I bet he could keep his car off the beach

POPEYE

blar blar blar

Andreas

Exactly, the cossie would have you.

EIL132

I'm sure it would, but do I give a fuck, no I have to use my car day in day out, 18k miles at least a year. Now I could have the Cossie and spend most of the time fixing it/upgrading it, or have the M and not worry. What would you chose

WD Pro

e36 evo unrestricted = 282kph (tad over 175 mph).

O-60 not a fair comparison as the ecu clips the power in first.

As for the turbo nutters :

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...4&page=1&pp=20

WD

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

I like all the people that have never owned a BMW going on about how good the reliability of them is . Ask any M3 owner and they will have had or will know someone who has had problems with the VANOS (particularly the double VANOS equipped cars) .

Also, E36 M3s are 1500kg / 321bhp = 214bhp/tonne, so a good stage 1 equipped Sapphire (1250kg / 270bhp = 216bhp/tonne) will have almost identical power to weight and a LOT more torque to weight .

I still wouldn't mind a 286bhp M3 to strip down for a track car, but would need to do this to get the weight down for me to consider it - otherwise they are extremely barge like .

I love CSLs and would have one of those tomorrow (despite the VANOS issues ) .

Red16

what's VANOS

RichardPON

VANOS is a combined hydraulic and mechanical camshaft control device managed by the car's DME engine management system.

The VANOS system is based on an adjustment mechanism that can modify the position of the intake camshaft versus the crankshaft. Double-VANOS adds an adjustment of the intake and outlet camshafts.

VANOS operates on the intake camshaft in accordance with engine speed and accelerator pedal position. At the lower end of the engine-speed scale, the intake valves are opened later, which improves idling quality and smoothness. At moderate engine speeds, the intake valves open much earlier, which boosts torque and permits exhaust gas re-circulation inside the combustion chambers, reducing fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. Finally, at high engine speeds, intake valve opening is once again delayed, so that full power can be developed.

VANOS significantly enhances emission management, increases output and torque, and offers better idling quality and fuel economy. The latest version of VANOS is double-VANOS, used in the new M3.

VANOS was first introduced in 1992 on the BMW M50 engine used in the 5 Series.



Here's how it works:

In overhead cam engines, the cams are connected to the crankshaft by either a belt or chain and gears. In BMW VANOS motors there is a chain and some sprockets.

The crankshaft drives a sprocket on the exhaust cam, and the exhaust cam sprocket is bolted to the exhaust cam. A second set of teeth moves a second chain that goes across to the intake cam. The big sprocket on the intake cam is not bolted to the cam, for it has a big hole in the middle. Inside the hole is a helical set of teeth. On the end of the cam is a gear that is also helical on the outside, but it's too small to connect to the teeth on the inside of the big sprocket. There is a little cup of metal with helical teeth to match the cam on the inside and to match the sprocket on the outside. The V (Variable) in VANOS is due to the helical nature of the teeth. The cup gear is moved by a hydraulic mechanism that works on oil pressure controlled by the DME.



At idle, the cam timing is retarded. Just off idle, the DME energizes a solenoid which allows oil pressure to move that cup gear to advance the cam 12.5 degrees at midrange, and then at about 5000 rpm, it allows it to come back to the original position. The greater advance causes better cylinder fill at mid rpms for better torque. The noise some people hear is the result of tolerances that make the sprocket wiggle a bit as the cup gear is moved in or out.

Double VANOS


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Double-VANOS (double-variable camshaft control) significantly improves torque since valve timing on both the intake and outlet camshafts are adjusted to the power required from the engine as a function of gas pedal position and engine speed.



On most BMW engines that use a single VANOS, the timing of the intake cam is only changed at two distinct rpm points, while on the double-VANOS system, the timing of the intake and exhaust cams are continuously variable throughout the majority of the rpm range.

With double-VANOS, the opening period of the intake valves are extended by 12 degrees with an increase in valve lift by 0.9 mm.

Double-VANOS requires very high oil pressure in order to adjust the camshafts very quickly and accurately, ensuring better torque at low engine speeds and better power at high speeds. With the amount of un-burnt residual gases being reduced, engine idle is improved. Special engine management control maps for the warm-up phase help the catalytic converter reach operating temperature sooner.

Double-VANOS improves low rpm power, flattens the torque curve, and widens the powerband for a given set of camshafts. The double-VANOS engine has a 450 rpm lower torque peak and a 200 rpm higher horsepower peak than single-VANOS, and the torque curve is improved between 1500 - 3800 rpm. At the same time, the torque does not fall off as fast past the horsepower peak.

The advantage of double-VANOS is that the system controls the flow of hot exhaust gases into the intake manifold individually for all operating conditions. This is referred to as "internal" exhaust gas re-circulation, allowing very fine dosage of the amount of exhaust gas recycled.

While the engine is warming up, VANOS improves the fuel/air mixture and helps to quickly warm up the catalytic converter to its normal operating temperature. When the engine is idling, the system keeps idle speeds smooth and consistent thanks to the reduction of exhaust gas re-circulation to a minimum. Under part load, exhaust gas re-circulation is increased to a much higher level, allowing the engine to run on a wider opening angle of the throttle butterfly in the interest of greater fuel economy. Under full load, the system switches back to a low re-circulation volume providing the cylinders with as much oxygen as possible.



Wrote that myself

Rich_w

Vanos is Variable Camshaft Control

Mike
Was talking to someone at a BMW show. He know more about these engines than I. He reckons they all get noisy and that doesnt mean its fooked. Apparently in Germany they've never heard of it as badly as in the UK. They virtually never fail. There was a recall / modification campaign which changed the bolts? on the early doube units. But once thats done it should be fine.

This guy says he changed the bolts every 20K a long with the internal filter as they only cost pennies and its for piece of mind.

The whole issue is down to 2 things.
1) Main agents making a tidy sum on a Warranty unit change
and
2) A well known bunch of cowboys who sell M3 GTs to car magazines. Ask in the BMW world about such a "Legend" of a company and you need to pull up a chair for all the bullshit people have been told, or mugged for work that didnt need doing or simply wasnt done!

EDIT after reading Pons "writing"
Audi use the same style of system to do their variable valve timing. (cams are linked by a chain. chain runner is on a solenoid that extends to change the timing of the cams) Yet you dont hear of the same problems.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

I know EXACTLY what you're talking about (e.g. E30 M3 timing chain "issue", when the tensionor from the E36 cures it ). However, it still remains that there are loads of people that have faced a Ł1k bill from BMW to fix the VANOS "problems", and most BMW owners know someone that have been clobbered in this way...

justin.e

Rich,
its just like v-tec
god your fingers must be sore

Rich_w

I fell for the E36 tensioner though.

Made virtually no difference. The S14 (2.3) lumps are just rattley regardless of miles/servicing/oil used

The chain is actually the same on the 6 pot lumps. A Duplex one. But never heard of a 3 litres engine chain snapping. They might jump if the tensioner gives up. But so far in the WHOLE world theres only been 4 prooven examples of chains snapping.

oscar wightman

Had both, Cosworth & M3 (and an M3 EVO)

All great cars, Cosworth was very reliable and never missed a beat (apart from needing regular setting up etc)

M3's were great - much nicer place to be inside than a cossie. Also much better on fuel...

Always loved the cosworth more though - Pedigree, daft road manners... dont really know why else...

Only thing - the cossie was relatively cheap to maintain. But, where the M3 saved on fuel bills, it more than made up for when things went wrong!!

Head gasket...Ł1100!!! I know people that kept getting the bumpers stolen aswell, they were expensive to replace by all accounts.

Also, a 95 M3 that i had, had a huge oil leak (83k FBMWSH) so sold it on sharpish!

Both great cars though..

WD Pro

Unfortunately Mike is right about the claimed reliability and the vanos seems to be the Achilles heel of the e36 evo engine (This bits actually made by Rolls Royce).

Had mine done at 51K (It was only noisy, but sounded shat) along with rear top mounts, rear trailing arm bushes, an oil leak, new heated mirror lenses, new battery …

The bill for that lot at the main stealers would be pushing 3k Thank fook for warranty !

Don’t worry about e46 M3 / CSL’s - ‘Failure’ of the later unit seems to be quite rare.

WD

PS : If anyone’s interested I have a link that puts pictures to Richards’s excellent description . Never knew it was capable of increasing valve lift though ?

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

RichardPON, shat it beachy boy bet you cpoied that from another forum really ...

but ... what is shonky using for a rear spoiler now you aint at the back of it

still can not beleive how this is going tho

so any other input from the bmw vs cossie debate

edd

how about the handling?

lol yours would eat one now surely :P

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

actually edd ... think i need a bit more negative ..