Glenn_

iTrader: (1)

Ops. 11million cars affected.

The good old germans.

gcfcos

What have they done ?

fuzzy

You can be sure if theyve been fiddling the tests they wont be the only ones doing it.

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

BMW are known for exaggerating their power figures too

fuzzy

And ive never seen a car achieve the mpg claimed either...

oldford

This is a bit more serious than exaggerating power figures or fuel usage.
But even exaggerating fuel usage figures can cost you hunderd's of million dollars in the US as Hyundai and Kia have found out.

What they basically did was use a software routine that could detect whether the car was undergoing an emission test or was driving on the highway.
When the emission test was detected the car was clean and complied with (strict) US rules. Otherwise they did not comply and produced 10 tot 40 times the amount of NOx that was allowed.
See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/e...tion-controls/

gcfcos

Oh dear that's gonna cost them!

oldford

Yep, and a lot more than you think.
The fine will be huge, but then there are the other costs.
Extra emission rights have to be bought, all cars must be recalled (at least in the US), owners will complain that they bought the car because it was good for the environment and will sue, then after the update the use of AdBlue will double or triple and more owners will start law suits.

ajamesc

Do any vw's use ad blue?

bigjohn0

What about audi as they use the same engine ? where will this end for the car makers who use each others bits.









Time to get on ebay and buy a bike

stevieturbo

it's a load of old bollox.

They can take any car off the production line and it will pass their silly tests. isnt that what they had to do ?

They've just bent the rules a little as to how they achieved it. I think they deserve a medal ! lol

Shaun's

Being thick but whats ad blue

ajamesc

its a man made water/urea substance that is injected into the exhaust gas flow before the cat to help neutralise nox particles that are harmful to breath in. Mostly used in trucks

RichieST

iTrader: (2)

Pigs piss lol

ajamesc

Thats a myth lol it's water ammonia and carbon dioxide

RichieST

iTrader: (2)

It's man made pigs piss then lol.

Glenn_

iTrader: (1)

So the vws that are 30 quid a year tax will the tax go up.

st220kyle

The VAG stuff doesn't seem so fucking amazing now does it!

botters

iTrader: (2)

all cars that are Ł30 and free tax are going up next year anyway glenn, but i agree with the one of the above statements, they are fucking geniuses lol.

3i Jim

And build quality.

clairendave

Fairly sure my bosses old CC GT170 had a tank in the boot, it got filled at service iirc.

ajamesc

I new a few play about with it like Merc and Citroen I think. I'm surprised more don't. If you ever work on a vehicle that runs it and you watch with the laptop via the nox sensors how much of a difference it makes on a warm day on a vehicle working hard and creating high nox levels it makes a huge difference

RichieST

iTrader: (2)

So why do some trucks use it and some don't? Our MAN's at work don't, yet the mercs do, do the mans have more complex egr systems or something?

ajamesc

Some took the ad blue route some took the erg route ad blue is better. But must new euro 6 trucks have both. The new daf has both as ad blue only works as the exhaust system gets up to temp. So the egr is there to reduce emissions until the exhaust is up to temp. The egr also heats the engine and allows the exhaust system to get up to temp along with a veritable vain turbo and injectior that doses fuel in to the exhaust. Once up to temp and using the ad blue system the egr helps cool the cylinder temp. The emissions system on a truck is fooking complicated now

boeb

Ma work van is a crafter /sprinter in disguise..that's uses ad blue as well

JamesH

iTrader: (21)

A calibration for adblue use can be expensive to develop. If you use too much of it you can output ammonia instead of NOx

ajamesc

New dafs have an ammonia filter to neutralise that

foreigneRS

this won't be just VW badged cars, it will be all group vehicles with the same engine so VW, Audi, Seat and Skoda

slammedorion

And the rest, bet every car firm is at it...
They all have each other's cars to pull apart...
Vag don't stop at the above

Porsche do a diesel

LHD220Turbo

iTrader: (4)

One for Stu to give the low down on the technical software sides of things, i wonder how they hid it?

stevieturbo

If it was there to be found, clearly it was not hidden.

If it passes the tests as they are required...what's the problem ?

The whole thing really is stupid, they must be changing the goalposts of the test or something to try and get money from them, or to help their local car makers

LHD220Turbo

iTrader: (4)

maybe, have VW said when they started doing this?

I wondered from a mapping point of view, when someone like Stu has all the map details did he spot it and think "what is this?" How obvious was it?

stevieturbo

Others have mentioned that the test procedure is quite specific....also likely carried out stationary, on rollers, bonnet up, steering wheel dead straight etc..

So given the vast array of info the car has available to it, it could be told to recognise all these things and perhaps run slightly differently.

I dont see that in any way as cheating. Cheating to me would suggest a car specifically modified to pass a test, and only that car would be able to pass.

But if any car can be driven off a production line or the street. Carry out the test it is required to do and pass...then it has met all the requirements of that test. There is no problem unless there are some dodgy deals going on somewhere within the US government

oldford

Several big truck company's like Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit diesel and others argued this in court pretty much the same way.
They lost and ended up paying 1 billion dollar. See: http://jalopnik.com/how-the-epa-won-...-be-1732109485

I personally find it a very good thing that VW has been caught. Other countries like Switserland, Italy, Germany, South-Korea are also starting investigations. The European Union is talking to their American counterpart, but I don't think they can do much, because of the way the EOBD law has been written. They forgot to add the penalties for infringements.

Now maybe I am biased as a cancer-patient and more cancer-patients in my family.
But I'll guarantee you, that you will change your opinion once you or one of your beloved ones get's cancer, especially when it's something the doctor's have never or rarely seen before.

fuzzy

The engines are capable of running like that but don't when Jo public gets them. Its definately misleading.

stevieturbo

If you think diesel fumes are the only carcinogenic stuff out there, you're crazy.

And no, it hasnt changed my opinion, but certainly it has been known for decades that diesel is a dirty carcinogenic fuel when it comes out the other end.

But when governments do virtually nothing to promote or encourage the use of cleaner fuels to build cars that will run on cleaner fuels eg LPG or E85 etc...and diesels when they work are cheaper to run...what the hell do they expect people to want to drive ?
So equally the governments are to blame for the popularity of diesels.

stevieturbo

If Joe public drove them exactly the same was as under the test procedure, then they would.

I dont see it as misleading.

What I do see as misleading is every single car manufacturers complete and utter lies about the mpg's their vehicles will achieve. That IS a scandal.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Of course its misleading. The emissions tests are meant to represent emissions standards of the vehicle as a whole. So fudging the engine management to cheat it clearly is cheating.

Its a bit like putting a bung in your exhaust for a static track noise test, then removing it before going on track

Or having your head lights aligned then pushing a button that makes them dangerously dazzling once you left the MoT station

MPG isnt governed by law, emissions are. The manufacturers can get away with MPG figures because if you bother to read the small print, they will tell you EXACTLY what conditions the MPG figures relate to.

stevieturbo

It's nothing like that. They are not having someone make changes to the car before or after a test. They can pick any car from anywhere and it will pass their test.

That isnt modifying or cheating in order to pass a test because every single car they pick will do the same, with anyone behind the wheel.

If it was only the cars that were chosen for test were modified or altered then it would of course be a very different story.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Of course it is cheating. Would it pass a road side emissions test? no.

So its not legal then is it?

The conditions of an MOT emissions test are only that way as its the only easy practical way to do it. There is no mobile rig they can plug in a do a test drive, nor would they want to have to do that.

So deliberately fudging the ECU to change its map for an MoT test so it seems to be a low emissions vehicle is blatently wrong.

Funny how the law seems to agree by giving them a likely massive fine.