General Car Related Discussion. To discuss anything that is related to cars and automotive technology that doesnt naturally fit into another forum catagory.

2.4transit lethargic to start cold but perfect after

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 25-03-2013, 05:07 PM
  #1  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default 2.4transit lethargic to start cold but perfect after

Hello peeps
My 2.4 red transit is lethargic to start from cold 2007 (same glows as a 2006? I see no 07 for sale)
After starting its fine for hours until stone cold again
It turns for aaages enough to flat the battery then after some coughing and diesel smoke it runs as well as the brand new ones we just had delivered (yep rattly until warm lol)
I'm thinking glow plugs but is that likely or is here perhaps a relay or similar that could be worth a try
I can glow it several times and it makes no difference
I'm unsure if a little throttle helps it or hinders it when turning over too
Many thanks for any help
Would easy start help diagnose heater plugs? Cheers again
Old 25-03-2013, 05:19 PM
  #2  
YOREVOL
YOREVOL
 
YOREVOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: HUDDERSFIELD
Posts: 1,280
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

try the fuel filter head. common for these to draw air into the fuel system.
Old 25-03-2013, 05:41 PM
  #3  
st phil
I'm Finding My Feet Here Now
 
st phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: scunthorpe
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

just had same problem with my transit connect was glow plugs had a new set fitted starts fine now.
Old 25-03-2013, 05:45 PM
  #4  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by YOREVOL
try the fuel filter head. common for these to draw air into the fuel system.
I pressed the yellow button on that but maybe I shouldn't lol
What do I do to fix that? Cheers
Old 25-03-2013, 05:49 PM
  #5  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by st phil
just had same problem with my transit connect was glow plugs had a new set fitted starts fine now.
Sounds positive ill look to see where they are
Old 25-03-2013, 06:41 PM
  #6  
fraser9764
PassionFord Post Troll
iTrader: (3)
 
fraser9764's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 3,070
Received 29 Likes on 23 Posts
Default

Do the free checks first. first check if you have 12v to the glow plug rail, then disconnect the rail and check the resistance from the + side of each glow plug to earth. each should give a reading of a few ohms but fairly equal across all 4.
if you dont have 12v then look at the fuse/relay,
if you have power and no resistance on some/all of the plugs change the plugs,
if all the plugs measure ok, then look at the pump head as said above.
Old 25-03-2013, 06:59 PM
  #7  
Karl 3dr
PassionFord Post Whore!!
iTrader: (9)
 
Karl 3dr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: here
Posts: 5,587
Received 37 Likes on 26 Posts
Default

Does it only do it on first start up in the morning or when it's been left for a while and then fine afterwards?

If so, could possibly be timing chain tensioner going weak,this puts the pump timing out slightly on initial cranking and then they're fine when the tensioner has filled with oil. Unusual on that age transit but not impossible, more common on 2005, 2006 Transits.
Old 25-03-2013, 07:00 PM
  #8  
FlashRS
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
iTrader: (10)
 
FlashRS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Aylesbury, Bucks
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Hi, had the same on a few transits i have had, there is a fuseable link that comes off the positive battery trrminal that powers the glow plug circuit, this can crap itself and not supply power to the glow plugs! It is normally taped into the loom up to 6 inches from the terminal, have a look at that, if its gone ,get a big 40 amp or so maxi fuse, some big spade connectors and put it in, always worked for me ! cheers,
Old 25-03-2013, 07:20 PM
  #9  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Is that at the battery or the jump point? I've looked at the engine and have found the glowplugs
I see the relay I'd grey and looks good but I have no second person to try things while the key is being turned but ill get the wife out there tomorrow
Cheers
And other info gratefully received
Old 25-03-2013, 07:39 PM
  #10  
saph4be
PassionFord Post Whore!!
 
saph4be's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: mansfield
Posts: 3,622
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

It's common rail the glow plugs are there mainly for emissions control! Should start fine at these temps first thing! As said timing chain is very common I got mine to do as its a pig to start when cold in morning then is fine all day.
Old 25-03-2013, 07:45 PM
  #11  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Its happening when in run and very cold I could leave it upto around 4 hours before it becomes an issue again
Can the chain tensioner be done with the head on? Was looking to do the plugs but read a lot of problems with them snapping or wreaking the threads
I just want to sell it
Old 25-03-2013, 07:49 PM
  #12  
saph4be
PassionFord Post Whore!!
 
saph4be's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: mansfield
Posts: 3,622
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Yeah you can leave head on, the plugs snap alot too! Have a good look at fuel lines as they suffer with air leaks causing issues
Old 25-03-2013, 07:57 PM
  #13  
RichieST
15K+ Super Poster!!
iTrader: (2)
 
RichieST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 18,732
Received 449 Likes on 397 Posts
Default

I doubt it is glow plug related, most modern diesels should start without them unless it is very, very cold.

One of our work vans had a very similar issue, it had all new fuel lines fitted from the tank, seemed to cure it.
Old 25-03-2013, 08:05 PM
  #14  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Trouble is doing everything will cost a bundle
Ill check there is power to them then its time to work along a list I guess
The pump head under the bonnet with the yellow button does something when I press it but only once as then it seems to set ??
So far the possibilities are fuel lines, timing, pump head,
Any way to remove any of those options with any checking?
Old 25-03-2013, 09:43 PM
  #15  
Karl 3dr
PassionFord Post Whore!!
iTrader: (9)
 
Karl 3dr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: here
Posts: 5,587
Received 37 Likes on 26 Posts
Default

Another thing to consider is doing a leak off test of the injectors, if you have one that is on the way out and causing the fuel rail pressure to be low it would cause it to be difficult to start, although I'd expect it to be like that when it's hot or cold tbh.

Have you got access to a fault code reader/diagnostic machine? If you have, see if there are any pump timing related codes stored, it could be a lot of things, the last thing you want to do is throw loads of money at it and see no improvement
Old 25-03-2013, 10:05 PM
  #16  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Sadly no codes, I have a mac obd2 scanner so not much but reads fine
Old 25-03-2013, 10:38 PM
  #17  
geordiegooner
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
 
geordiegooner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NEWCASTLE
Posts: 943
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

slightly off topic but my 06 plate focus tdci has exactly the same starting problems the op has describe so interested to see what the problem is.
Old 25-03-2013, 10:57 PM
  #18  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

How do j check the filter head? Will any pics help? I'm off after tomorrow so hoping to fix it while I'm doing nowt
Old 26-03-2013, 04:07 PM
  #19  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Found a bad connection where the glow feed goes to a terminal and the other side is a nut and eyelet
Obviously the nut then decided to fuck off into a parallel universe (any idea on size?) and the eyelet is rusted thru but it is getting a current when the ignition is switched on
Old 27-03-2013, 06:40 PM
  #20  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

50% fixed
The connection is far better so starts much quicker but a little spluttery for a few seconds
So I think new plugs will sort that
Old 27-03-2013, 06:47 PM
  #21  
the_frozen_one
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
iTrader: (1)
 
the_frozen_one's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Crawley, West Sussex
Posts: 842
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Cycle the plugs 4-5 times to rule them out either way? Switch on, wait for light to go out, switch off and repeat. After 4 or 5 goes even knackered plugs should be hot enough. If its better that way then the plugs are gone.

Don't listen to all this they don't need plugs, it's just emissions crap, diesels need glow plugs to start easy. End of.
Old 27-03-2013, 08:14 PM
  #22  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Tomorrow I was going to give it a 30 second blast with a jump lead from the jump point to the plug power rail then fire her up and see what happens
But a chap was next door who is a bit of diesel expert who went thru it with his meters and all was good there after but it wasn't cold once we tampered with it
Old 27-03-2013, 09:18 PM
  #23  
RichieST
15K+ Super Poster!!
iTrader: (2)
 
RichieST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 18,732
Received 449 Likes on 397 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by the_frozen_one
Don't listen to all this they don't need plugs, it's just emissions crap, diesels need glow plugs to start easy. End of.

No they don't, some diesel engines start first time without glow plugs in any weather. I'm an access engineer so work with diesel engines all day, every day and most start absolutely fine with no glow.

My tddi diesel mondeo starts just the same with no glow at all, only when it is very cold (sub 0deg) do I let the glow plugs warm first as it does take a few extra turns of the key to get it started. The cylinder head temperature switch takes its reading so knows how long to cycle the plugs for, when the engine is above freezing temperatures the glow light on the dash comes on and goes out within a second or two, when it is cold it stays on for 5-6 seconds.

It is a lot to do with emissions, some cars have the glow plugs come on when on cold idle to help get a better combustion, thus better emissions.
Old 27-03-2013, 11:31 PM
  #24  
JFB Tech
Not entirely sane
 
JFB Tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 521
Received 13 Likes on 10 Posts
Default

Some Diesel cars cycle the glow plugs when you first open the driver's door (triggered from the courtesy light switch) This way, the glow cycle will be shorter or non existent when you go to start it. My 2000 Seat Cordoba did it so I expect most modern Diesels do. This is probably why RichieST says they start fine without. I've seem many Diesel engines with shot glow plugs being cranked forever before they'll start and then belching white smoke until it warms up enough to burn the fuel properly.
Old 27-03-2013, 11:42 PM
  #25  
the_frozen_one
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
iTrader: (1)
 
the_frozen_one's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Crawley, West Sussex
Posts: 842
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RichieST
No they don't, some diesel engines start first time without glow plugs in any weather. I'm an access engineer so work with diesel engines all day, every day and most start absolutely fine with no glow.

My tddi diesel mondeo starts just the same with no glow at all, only when it is very cold (sub 0deg) do I let the glow plugs warm first as it does take a few extra turns of the key to get it started. The cylinder head temperature switch takes its reading so knows how long to cycle the plugs for, when the engine is above freezing temperatures the glow light on the dash comes on and goes out within a second or two, when it is cold it stays on for 5-6 seconds.

It is a lot to do with emissions, some cars have the glow plugs come on when on cold idle to help get a better combustion, thus better emissions.
When we replace glowplugs with pressure transducers we have to use the dyno to start the engines, and that's indoors.

In cold climate cells we have to run block heaters if we don't have functional glowplugs.
Old 27-03-2013, 11:49 PM
  #26  
1.9 xr2 on 40's
st170 breaking
Thread Starter
 
1.9 xr2 on 40's's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: norfolk
Posts: 5,298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

From my observations the glow light on the dash bares no resemblance to how long the plugs actually heat for too
Same as old escorts the lamp may work but means nowt to the plugs I've even seen petrol conversions where the glow lamp still lights lol
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Rob Wells
Ford Mondeo Including ST
6
18-04-2023 12:19 AM
xrmalin
Ford Escort RS Turbo
19
13-09-2015 06:52 PM
gingeRS
General Car Related Discussion.
6
04-09-2015 06:29 PM
Bailes1992
Restorations, Rebuilds & Projects.
4
03-09-2015 02:17 PM
kevin36
General Car Related Discussion.
4
02-09-2015 06:24 PM



Quick Reply: 2.4transit lethargic to start cold but perfect after



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:22 PM.