Rolling Roads - Tell us your stories...
23-07-2012, 09:25 AM
#81
Then do it at the track.
I'm not saying a dyno isnt worthwhile, clearly it can be a big help. But it is not essential.
You wont see many funny or top fuel cars mapped on a dyno. Or indeed many of the fastest drag cars, simply because the dyno wouldnt be able to cope.
So powerful engines dont have to be set up on a dyno
I'm not saying a dyno isnt worthwhile, clearly it can be a big help. But it is not essential.
You wont see many funny or top fuel cars mapped on a dyno. Or indeed many of the fastest drag cars, simply because the dyno wouldnt be able to cope.
So powerful engines dont have to be set up on a dyno
It would be like trying to map an explosion
Last edited by Chip; 23-07-2012 at 09:26 AM.
23-07-2012, 09:30 AM
#82
With faster cars on the road its pretty hard to see which load site is doing what TBH, so I always like to use a dyno to help out with that side of it but then check it on the road after.
Im of the opinion you cant properly map a car fully without both road and dyno mapping.
Im of the opinion you cant properly map a car fully without both road and dyno mapping.
I'm not saying a dyno isnt useful, but dyno's arent always readily available. So you make do with what you have.
And as this thread highlights, even when there are some available, you may as well be setting the rear tyres onto an upside down skateboard given the operators ability to use the rollers, or the actual rollers themselves being crap.
There was a thread recently on another forum where a guy had is 400bhp car on rollers, and it needed 2 people in the boot for it to get grip on the rollers.
Seriously, those rollers must only be useful for normally aspirated diesels ! lol
Last edited by stevieturbo; 23-07-2012 at 09:33 AM.
23-07-2012, 09:31 AM
#83
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With faster cars on the road its pretty hard to see which load site is doing what TBH, so I always like to use a dyno to help out with that side of it but then check it on the road after.
Im of the opinion you cant properly map a car fully without both road and dyno mapping.
Im of the opinion you cant properly map a car fully without both road and dyno mapping.
but hub dyno only for big power.
Last edited by scoooby slayer; 23-07-2012 at 09:33 AM.
23-07-2012, 09:37 AM
#84
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Then do it at the track.
I'm not saying a dyno isnt worthwhile, clearly it can be a big help. But it is not essential.
You wont see many funny or top fuel cars mapped on a dyno. Or indeed many of the fastest drag cars, simply because the dyno wouldnt be able to cope.
So powerful engines dont have to be set up on a dyno
I'm not saying a dyno isnt worthwhile, clearly it can be a big help. But it is not essential.
You wont see many funny or top fuel cars mapped on a dyno. Or indeed many of the fastest drag cars, simply because the dyno wouldnt be able to cope.
So powerful engines dont have to be set up on a dyno
23-07-2012, 09:37 AM
#85
The only way to really know what a cell is doing, is to hold it in that cell and with a fast car that means a dyno.
That said, personally I am of the opinion you only ever visit 2 bar of boost when you are accelerating not held on a fast car anyway as no hill is that steep even in 5th, so a held value is less critical than on a slower car.
I'm not saying a dyno isnt useful, but dyno's arent always readily available. So you make do with what you have.
And as this thread highlights, even when there are some available, you may as well be setting the rear tyres onto an upside down skateboard given the operators ability to use the rollers, or the actual rollers themselves being crap.
There was a thread recently on another forum where a guy had is 400bhp car on rollers, and it needed 2 people in the boot for it to get grip on the rollers.
Seriously, those rollers must only be useful for normally aspirated diesels ! lol
And as this thread highlights, even when there are some available, you may as well be setting the rear tyres onto an upside down skateboard given the operators ability to use the rollers, or the actual rollers themselves being crap.
There was a thread recently on another forum where a guy had is 400bhp car on rollers, and it needed 2 people in the boot for it to get grip on the rollers.
Seriously, those rollers must only be useful for normally aspirated diesels ! lol
23-07-2012, 10:00 AM
#86
Actually I would disagree on some aspects..
Having tried to hold mine once on a dyno at a high load in a single cell, I would never ever do it again.
It was horrific for both the dyno and me lol
As for accel enrichments, again I would never even contemplate a dyno for this, or indeed chasing AFR's as so many seem to do. Transients are all about feel. AFR's are irrelevant. If it is responsive and feels good, then it is correct regardless of wat a dyno might say, or what AFR's might say.
And transients should have no impact on a single pull, and if you felt they could somehow be activated during a pull, you would turn them off so they didnt interfere with the pull.
When you dont have access to a dyno, you just get on with it and improvise. Ive only ever had my car on about 4 dynos in the 11 years Ive owned it
First all it would do was missfire, despite running fine on the road.
Second time it ran great with no issues. Third time it missfired like mad yet still made ridiculous numbers, so they simply could not be believed ( same dyno 2nd and 3rd times ). And 4th final time it ran fine, and numbers were more realistic albeit very conservatively tuned. Just went to prove a point at a dyno day really that a blower car can drive thousands of miles and not suffer any heat problems etc on a dyno and still make decent numbers using only normal SUL fuel.
So I'm proabably biased through a lack of real dyno experience. And the fact so many dyno tuned cars simply dont live up to the dyno numbers they produce when they hit the road or track.
Would I like my own dyno ? Of course I would ! lol But it would primarily be a toy if I ever did buy one. I wouldnt have the patience to deal with customers
Having tried to hold mine once on a dyno at a high load in a single cell, I would never ever do it again.
It was horrific for both the dyno and me lol
As for accel enrichments, again I would never even contemplate a dyno for this, or indeed chasing AFR's as so many seem to do. Transients are all about feel. AFR's are irrelevant. If it is responsive and feels good, then it is correct regardless of wat a dyno might say, or what AFR's might say.
And transients should have no impact on a single pull, and if you felt they could somehow be activated during a pull, you would turn them off so they didnt interfere with the pull.
When you dont have access to a dyno, you just get on with it and improvise. Ive only ever had my car on about 4 dynos in the 11 years Ive owned it
First all it would do was missfire, despite running fine on the road.
Second time it ran great with no issues. Third time it missfired like mad yet still made ridiculous numbers, so they simply could not be believed ( same dyno 2nd and 3rd times ). And 4th final time it ran fine, and numbers were more realistic albeit very conservatively tuned. Just went to prove a point at a dyno day really that a blower car can drive thousands of miles and not suffer any heat problems etc on a dyno and still make decent numbers using only normal SUL fuel.
So I'm proabably biased through a lack of real dyno experience. And the fact so many dyno tuned cars simply dont live up to the dyno numbers they produce when they hit the road or track.
Would I like my own dyno ? Of course I would ! lol But it would primarily be a toy if I ever did buy one. I wouldnt have the patience to deal with customers
23-07-2012, 10:16 AM
#87
Im not sure we are disagreeing at all there Stevie, my experience mirrors your own. Like I said on a big power car held cells are just not something relevant to the real world.
Although still useful for all the cruise stuff, but then thats easily done on the road anyway.
I gave up worrying about textbook AFRs in all circumstances a long time ago, how the car drives matters far more and I have found that often the two dont go as hand in hand as you would expect.
My pet hate is people who obsess about idle AFR for example, some cars just simply seem to like idling at mid 13s for example, when you actually look at the amount of fuel involved in doing so, even if you left a car idling for a week it really wouldnt matter in the slightest and its not like its going to bore wash on 2ms of injector open time, lol
Although still useful for all the cruise stuff, but then thats easily done on the road anyway.
I gave up worrying about textbook AFRs in all circumstances a long time ago, how the car drives matters far more and I have found that often the two dont go as hand in hand as you would expect.
My pet hate is people who obsess about idle AFR for example, some cars just simply seem to like idling at mid 13s for example, when you actually look at the amount of fuel involved in doing so, even if you left a car idling for a week it really wouldnt matter in the slightest and its not like its going to bore wash on 2ms of injector open time, lol
Last edited by Chip; 23-07-2012 at 10:18 AM.
23-07-2012, 05:51 PM
#88
Ive only ever had my car on about 4 dynos in the 11 years Ive owned it
First all it would do was missfire, despite running fine on the road.
Second time it ran great with no issues. Third time it missfired like mad yet still made ridiculous numbers, so they simply could not be believed ( same dyno 2nd and 3rd times ).
First all it would do was missfire, despite running fine on the road.
Second time it ran great with no issues. Third time it missfired like mad yet still made ridiculous numbers, so they simply could not be believed ( same dyno 2nd and 3rd times ).
23-07-2012, 09:55 PM
#90
24-07-2012, 05:23 AM
#92
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Where I work we have a MAHA HVG dyno, sometimes we tests FWR RWD cars on it as theres only 2 rollers.
Mate tried to test his Mk1 ST took it for 1 test run, ran fine took it for its first power run the car nearly jumped out of the rollers.
Whatever way we have our strap down points where not good enough to strap down the ST.
When the usual HVGs get tested the back wall is full of holes where the stones in the tyres get spat out and ricochet off the walls
Mate tried to test his Mk1 ST took it for 1 test run, ran fine took it for its first power run the car nearly jumped out of the rollers.
Whatever way we have our strap down points where not good enough to strap down the ST.
When the usual HVGs get tested the back wall is full of holes where the stones in the tyres get spat out and ricochet off the walls
24-07-2012, 07:43 AM
#93
Give Martin @ Reyland a call mate.
A VERY common problem mate and one that has never been totally overcome, although the new Dyno Dynamics high power strap down system goes a long way to solve this. Its a clever system.
24-07-2012, 10:22 AM
#95
It's no bad thing that it can load an engine more, as it will highlight areas that need improvement. On the other hand, if the problems never exist on the road, is there a problem worth worrying about ?
24-07-2012, 11:34 AM
#96
My car has been on the dyno 10+ times since I've had it trying to iron out all the little niggles. Never had a problem with the dyno or the operators.. just the car .
I honestly don't know where this fear of dyno's that a few people have comes from. If anything its a safer place to floor your car than on the road.
.I honestly don't know where this fear of dyno's that a few people have comes from. If anything its a safer place to floor your car than on the road.
24-07-2012, 12:34 PM
#97
My car has been on the dyno 10+ times since I've had it trying to iron out all the little niggles. Never had a problem with the dyno or the operators.. just the car .
I honestly don't know where this fear of dyno's that a few people have comes from. If anything its a safer place to floor your car than on the road.
.I honestly don't know where this fear of dyno's that a few people have comes from. If anything its a safer place to floor your car than on the road.
24-07-2012, 12:43 PM
#98
Only reason I can think is the dyno loads the car up more than the road. There is no real way around that though, as you wouldnt do a dyno pull with a ramp time of say 2 seconds.
It's no bad thing that it can load an engine more, as it will highlight areas that need improvement. On the other hand, if the problems never exist on the road, is there a problem worth worrying about ?
It's no bad thing that it can load an engine more, as it will highlight areas that need improvement. On the other hand, if the problems never exist on the road, is there a problem worth worrying about ?
However, providing that it is indeed just load overloading the ignition system, and not external influences such as huge air or engine temperatures causing it to correct the fuel and spark tables in ways that are never normally seen on the road and are thus not correctly programmed in your management**, then you can bet the engine would run cleaner on the road too if you overcome whatever ignition deficiency that is causing the missfire problem as the fact is, you should be able to accelerate with a load heavy enough to stop the vehicle accelerating without introducing missfires and it seems for whatever reason, your installation is always bordering on this missfire depending on load applied, and thus may also be partially misfiring around this load area and dropping potential power.
**
A good example = dyno ramp rate set too high and causing the ECU to access a fuel load site that the car will never ever access on the road, and that particular load site has been left mapped really rich, thus causing a miss-fire on the dyno, but never the road.
24-07-2012, 12:44 PM
#99
To be honest mate I disagree, the dyno is a very harsh environment for a car and it is almost always FAR safer on the road. There are a number of reasons for this, most of which were mentioned in my long post on the last page. However, all those points are negated at the very second you crash. LOL
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 24-07-2012 at 12:45 PM.
24-07-2012, 05:34 PM
#100
To be honest mate I disagree, the dyno is a very harsh environment for a car and it is almost always FAR safer on the road. There are a number of reasons for this, most of which were mentioned in my long post on the last page. However, all those points are negated at the very second you crash. LOL
24-07-2012, 06:35 PM
#101
I mean in the respect that everything on the car is being monitored whilst on a dyno... well if the people doing it are working properly.
24-07-2012, 07:16 PM
#109
some very short sighted veiws here !! you cant blame a dyno for a tight fisted fuckin idiot that doesnt set the dyno up right or builds the cell properly ! like my post earlier its not always the equipment its mostly the organic dick that operates it ! Ibet there's just as much fucked up live mapped cars if not more than dyno/road tuned cars !!
behind every conceivable fuck up in life you can garrenttee there's a clever human behind it
Ive done over 60 cars in 3 years on dyno's and never had a issue just made sure on a track or road that theres nothing out of place and on the other spin of the coin ive used julian godfrey countless times along with rick wood who both use bench dyno's admitidly climate controlled and all the engines have been 110% !! when i dyno is sold to company they should only be aloud to own and use it if its set up correctly BUT in a real world theres cowboys about like in any trade , so do you ur research and use the best . IMO and it is just my opinion having a full live road map is just paying for a roll your dice execution
behind every conceivable fuck up in life you can garrenttee there's a clever human behind it
Ive done over 60 cars in 3 years on dyno's and never had a issue just made sure on a track or road that theres nothing out of place and on the other spin of the coin ive used julian godfrey countless times along with rick wood who both use bench dyno's admitidly climate controlled and all the engines have been 110% !! when i dyno is sold to company they should only be aloud to own and use it if its set up correctly BUT in a real world theres cowboys about like in any trade , so do you ur research and use the best . IMO and it is just my opinion having a full live road map is just paying for a roll your dice execution
Last edited by Jay,; 24-07-2012 at 07:23 PM.
24-07-2012, 07:35 PM
#112
Where?
Who on this topic said they blamed the dyno itself?
Definitely, although they usually drive a whole lot better before they blow up. LOL
Someone upset you today mate?
you cant blame a dyno for a tight fisted fuckin idiot that doesnt set the dyno up right or builds the cell properly !
like my post earlier its not always the equipment its mostly the organic dick that operates it ! I bet there's just as much fucked up live mapped cars if not more than dyno/road tuned cars !!
Ive done over 60 cars in 3 years on dyno's and never had a issue just made sure on a track or road that theres nothing out of place and on the other spin of the coin ive used julian godfrey countless times along with rick wood who both use bench dyno's admitidly climate controlled and all the engines have been 110% !! when i dyno is sold to company they should only be aloud to own and use it if its set up correctly BUT in a real world theres cowboys about like in any trade , so do you ur research and use the best .
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 24-07-2012 at 07:36 PM.
24-07-2012, 08:42 PM
#114
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Stu, how about all us that no nothing at all about rolling roads.
Ive only ever had one of my cars on the rollers once but wasnt there to witness it so couldnt comment. I just picked the car up a few days later and said it was all ok.
I will be needing the car to go back on the rollers shortly now its been fully rebuild and had other extras on, but again apart from going of a recomendation i wouldnt have a clue if theve done a good job or not or if the rollers were ok etc etc.
Obviously last time it went on the car ran ok, never broke down or had any issues so i guess it was a good rr session!!
Im just taking the guys word that hes done his best, wot if the next guy could make it run smother and get even more power/drivability out of it??
rick
Ive only ever had one of my cars on the rollers once but wasnt there to witness it so couldnt comment. I just picked the car up a few days later and said it was all ok.
I will be needing the car to go back on the rollers shortly now its been fully rebuild and had other extras on, but again apart from going of a recomendation i wouldnt have a clue if theve done a good job or not or if the rollers were ok etc etc.
Obviously last time it went on the car ran ok, never broke down or had any issues so i guess it was a good rr session!!
Im just taking the guys word that hes done his best, wot if the next guy could make it run smother and get even more power/drivability out of it??
rick
24-07-2012, 09:34 PM
#115
Hi Rick,
Well, first of all, if you were happy thats a bloody great start. If the engine performed better, thats an even better start, but I guess most people want to know its safe, so this is where your graphs come in.
Hopefully you obtained a graph that plotted not only your power, but also the Air Fuel Ratio from low revs right up to the limiter? If so, and the numbers look good, your onto a winner. If it was in for a tune, instead of just a test run then maybe you got before and after graphs to indicate improvements at full throttle?
What you may never know, is just what the inlet air temperatures where inside the engine, and its this that can make a safe dyno car, a deadly road car.
Knowing the AFR was fine at 30psi boost with inlet temps of 60 degrees C, does not give you any idea how safe the same setup is with inlet temps of 20 degrees C as that requires more fuel per stroke.
Its all a compomise, and one that in reality only OE manufacturers have the budget to overcome, so all you can do is quiz the operator and make an educated guess as to his ability to use the dyno to give you something meaningfull. Do some Googling, most good dyno operators are hard to find bad press about. Gary @ APT springs to mind instantly.
Modern cars with OBD2 are far easier to work with, just ask the operator to plot your ACT and maybe fuel pressure alongside AFR on the same graph, and then you have a very usefull indication of how the system is looking.
If the vehicle has knock levels available in the datastream then graph those too for a much more heartwarming graph than most.
I wrote an article on dyno's ages ago that some may be interested in if your interetested in how they actually work.
http://www.motorsport-developments.c...AF258.tech.pdf
Well, first of all, if you were happy thats a bloody great start. If the engine performed better, thats an even better start, but I guess most people want to know its safe, so this is where your graphs come in.
Hopefully you obtained a graph that plotted not only your power, but also the Air Fuel Ratio from low revs right up to the limiter? If so, and the numbers look good, your onto a winner. If it was in for a tune, instead of just a test run then maybe you got before and after graphs to indicate improvements at full throttle?
What you may never know, is just what the inlet air temperatures where inside the engine, and its this that can make a safe dyno car, a deadly road car.
Knowing the AFR was fine at 30psi boost with inlet temps of 60 degrees C, does not give you any idea how safe the same setup is with inlet temps of 20 degrees C as that requires more fuel per stroke.
Its all a compomise, and one that in reality only OE manufacturers have the budget to overcome, so all you can do is quiz the operator and make an educated guess as to his ability to use the dyno to give you something meaningfull. Do some Googling, most good dyno operators are hard to find bad press about. Gary @ APT springs to mind instantly.
Modern cars with OBD2 are far easier to work with, just ask the operator to plot your ACT and maybe fuel pressure alongside AFR on the same graph, and then you have a very usefull indication of how the system is looking.
If the vehicle has knock levels available in the datastream then graph those too for a much more heartwarming graph than most.
I wrote an article on dyno's ages ago that some may be interested in if your interetested in how they actually work.
http://www.motorsport-developments.c...AF258.tech.pdf
Stu, how about all us that no nothing at all about rolling roads.
Ive only ever had one of my cars on the rollers once but wasnt there to witness it so couldnt comment. I just picked the car up a few days later and said it was all ok.
I will be needing the car to go back on the rollers shortly now its been fully rebuild and had other extras on, but again apart from going of a recomendation i wouldnt have a clue if theve done a good job or not or if the rollers were ok etc etc.
Obviously last time it went on the car ran ok, never broke down or had any issues so i guess it was a good rr session!!
Im just taking the guys word that hes done his best, wot if the next guy could make it run smother and get even more power/drivability out of it??
rick
Ive only ever had one of my cars on the rollers once but wasnt there to witness it so couldnt comment. I just picked the car up a few days later and said it was all ok.
I will be needing the car to go back on the rollers shortly now its been fully rebuild and had other extras on, but again apart from going of a recomendation i wouldnt have a clue if theve done a good job or not or if the rollers were ok etc etc.
Obviously last time it went on the car ran ok, never broke down or had any issues so i guess it was a good rr session!!
Im just taking the guys word that hes done his best, wot if the next guy could make it run smother and get even more power/drivability out of it??
rick
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 24-07-2012 at 09:37 PM.
24-07-2012, 09:54 PM
#116
If you're looking for a Dyno Stu, whilst Ive never used them, Mainline has many interfaces for OBD and aftermarket tuning software to assist with tuning.
From what I understand, it is the best dyno out there with regards to tuning and diagnostics due to how it interfaces with various ecu's etc
Nothing else comes close.
There is a forum over on EFI101 with a dyno section.
From what I understand, it is the best dyno out there with regards to tuning and diagnostics due to how it interfaces with various ecu's etc
Nothing else comes close.
There is a forum over on EFI101 with a dyno section.
24-07-2012, 10:47 PM
#117
He has a huge cell with the front fan fed with 2/3foot square industrial ducting from the outside of his unit and then a huge extraction hole set up in the wall behind the car. It really did look to be a fantastic set up. Well worth a look
24-07-2012, 11:14 PM
#118
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When Top Gear ran the Mustang which was supposedly 500bhp they came to the conclusion that Ford wasn't being truthful because it never made said power, nor did Richard Hammond's classic mustang. This was outside, with no fans. I'm no expert, but every time I see it I think surely they'd have a better set up than this to slate a manufacturer? Or am I missing something?
Benni
Benni
24-07-2012, 11:17 PM
#119
When Top Gear ran the Mustang which was supposedly 500bhp they came to the conclusion that Ford wasn't being truthful because it never made said power, nor did Richard Hammond's classic mustang. This was outside, with no fans. I'm no expert, but every time I see it I think surely they'd have a better set up than this to slate a manufacturer? Or am I missing something?
Benni
Benni
It's just a nonsense TV program largely full of bullshit. Sometimes entertaining, sometimes not. But still full of bullshit.
25-07-2012, 12:51 AM
#120
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Benni
Last edited by Benni; 25-07-2012 at 12:52 AM.