Si B

iTrader: (59)

Took my car to the local Dyno Dynamics rolling road at Veysport in Verwood, Dorset. I use DD Rollers all the time as I seem to get consistent results wherever I take the car if they use the same Dyno Dynamics kit.

Anyway, cut to the chase here's my Escort Cossie's run, first graph is power ATF, and torque curve, second graph is power at the wheels, complete with AFR and boost pressure.





Basic spec of the engine as far as I know is:

Escort Cos standard block, head and cams. T34.63 running 2 bar boost controlled via Blitz Dual SBC. R&B Swedish plenum with seperate vacuum block and billet fuel rail, Group A headgasket, Siemens 83 lb hr fuel injectors. L8 ECU with Motor Sport Developments chip – including Wasted spark coil pack driver, closed loop Lambda fueling and anti lag. Newman alloy vernier pulleys Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator, K&N air filter, Extreme 3” stainless steel exhaust including decat.

Considering it's an off the shelf chip that MSD did for the previous owner, without seeing the car and for a very non standard spec (550 bhp capable fuel injectors on a T34 engine?), I think it's drives and fuels very nicely. At some point I'll take the car to MSD and get them to do a live map on it if I feel the need.

Anyway, like said, IMHO it drives very nicely. The RR operator was relatively surprised at the lowish torque level though, especially considering the 2.0 bar boost. 280 lb ft, where as my brother's Evo with 371 bhp made 320 odd lb ft. On the road not a lot between my Escos and his Evo, which is good

So is my car running a little low on torque / power or do the numbers all look fine? I'm quite happy with it, if I need more go I have a 600 bhp Evo to drive

Anyone got any RR graphs they could post up for similar spec 350-400 bhp Cossies?

Si

Ghiabox

Mo bent rims will be here in a minute with some pics of his super duper beast, I heard it has 300 BHP on tickover.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Its not coming on boost properly at the right point in the rev range, thats the reason that you have so little torque.

Once its on boost that all looks good, you'd make slightly more power if you were a little leaner in the 5-6 regon but its nice and safe like that.

You need to work out why that turbo is spooling so much later than it should be, thats all that needs sorting there IMHO.

You'll find another 20-30% more torque probably if you can get that 2 bar of boost in sooner.
Mind you, then you will just blast gearboxes to pieces of course, especially with how you drive like a total cunt with utterly NO mechancial sympathy on changes!

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

T34.63, light port and polished head, bd15 inlet cam. 4x4 inlet, greys, standard fuel rail and regulator, 044 pump, P8 ecu, cone filter, 3" exhaust. Boost done on mechanical valve as my loom has amal wiring cut out.

380/380 is supposed to be about right for a t34.63 on 2 bar or so.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Simon, Warrens 275bhp @ 3800rpm with 380lbft is due to the boost arriving a lot sooner.

If your boost was coming in sooner, thats the sort of figure you could potentially get to as well.

The Youth.

iTrader: (1)

this is mine from my race car, std engine (balanced bottom end) t34.48, light blues, cheapo rs500 cooler and and exhaust that was shite and restricting it (now changed)

power low but loads of torque



steve

Si B

iTrader: (59)

Hmm, now I've got some graphs to compare I can see what you mean Chip, thanks very much

My car gets to peak boost around 5200 rpm, Warren on the same turbo is there at 3750, Steve at 4400 rpm. That's a whole lot of difference to mine.

Weirdly, to drive the car feels fine, plenty of go. I'd imagine it will feel a lot better than fine if I get the boost in earlier. You're absolutely right though Chip with my ham fisted driving the box won't stand a chance!

I've already broken one as soon as I got the car to boost 28psi instead of 21 psi it was just about making when I bought it. First road run once the boost was up saw 3rd gear vanish

However, I'm trying to sort all the niggles with the car, and if there's more to come from the same spec, then I could do with sorting it. Any suggestions as to why my boost might be a little retarded (like the owner? )

It has no / minimal boost leaks, already sorted all that soon after buying the car. Could a soggy / weak actuator be the cause? No idea of the age of it. Might need a shiny new -34 if anyone can supply one cheaply??????

Thank you everyone so far

Si

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Well it looks like the operator was at full throttle on "hold" on the rollers before he pressed "ramp", as its at roughly atmpospheric when the run started, so it doesnt look like operator error, which can sometimes be the cause of a turbo spooling late.


Have you watched the boost gauge in the car to see when it actually comes in when in use on the road?


Actuator would certainly be a sensible place to start, but so would talking to stu about the chip, it is possible after all that its deliberately mapped that way to try and save the box for example, although I would be surprised if that was the case, but its possible so you need to know what the ecu is trying to achieve boost wise in the first place.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ps

Did he really rev it to over 8K?

As if not, the roller sync could be out which would make the torque look lower than it is and would make the boost look like it came in a little lower (although not by as much as yours is down)

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

The Boost map is balls out on those, but you have an aftermarket controller anyway!

i would start with an actuator, load it up with a hole of preload.

The rev limit wont be as high as 8k on that spec, more likely 7250.

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

cutback or fooked blades on Turbo?

Is boost controller 'Gain' dialled back?

actuator?

stu21t

I had a problem like that on mine.
It was due to a warped wastefate penny.
Ł65 later and i had a nice new one from CR turbos and its an easy job to swap but you need a couple of spot welds, i think cr will do it for just over Ł100

I will post my graph later but id check the penny before spending money on anything else.

Its easy to do, drop the downpipe off, disconnect the actuator bar, put some white touch up paint around the sealing part of the wastegate penny (a band the size of the paintstick is fine)
Then close the penny and hook the actuator back up while the paints wet.
Disconnect the actuator and have aook at how much paint on the wastgate/penny. If not 2 complete circles then u need a new one.
Mine was touching about 20%
after fitting a new one it was like a new car.
Felt like instant boost and twice as much power.


A mate of mine recently had a bog std escos on the rollers with t34.63 and a msd chip off the shelf with seimens injectors, made 375bhp cant remember the torque.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Well thats 30lbft he's lost off the graph then just due to a roller sync error!

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

Indeed,

i can check if Si texts me the chip number, but i cant see we would ever rev a T34 to 8k. All the ones ive done live have been 7250 so i would assume stu used the same on this one.

maybe Si have a look at the secs monitor, and see what the peak rpm is, it will be incorrect due to the wasted spark, but you can easily work it out. that will give you a rough idea.

Yura

strange that the power increasing till 8000rpm... at std head and cams and t34.63. I think it is impossible. And this turbo should make 2 bar much early. Here is some rpm error on graph imo.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

James, yes it is definately worth checking with the actual serial number for the rev limiter and likewise just to make sure that there wasnt a requirement for the boost to come in late (seems very unlikely)

Then once that is ruled out, its just a case of finding out why the turbo is allowing gasses through the wastegate when it shouldnt, which will pretty much have to be either the actuator is weak, or a bent or chipped penny valve (like Stu mentioned)

The good news is that the turbo is obviously working fine once spooled, the map seems good, and the engine is obvioulsy working well once it sees boost too, so cant be a big deal to fix.


Si do the following:

Find a hill you can use for testing thats near by, put it at 2500rpm in 3rd and go full throttle, and observe when it first makes a bar of boost. so that you can check if any changes you make have worked without needing another trip to the rollers. As you can reproduce this test easily.

Send the chip serial number to stu just to rule out it being deliberately mapped like that

Check that the actuator has suffficient preload by disconnecting it and making sure that there is tension about 5mm or so before it lines up with the hole in the arm

If both the above are ok, take the downpipe off and inspect the penny valve (if you are in doubt I can have a look for you)

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Isnt having a large sweedish plenum going to fuck up the torque in the mid range too???


its almost as if the previous owner retrofitted a smaller turbo before selling up.

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

the plan for the car was a T4, thats why he started gathering the bits for a 500bhp build.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes a little, and it can make it harder to get the transient fuelling right, but not to anything like that extent at WOT, thats a lack of boost which is the issue not a problem with the plenum.

dave cos4x4

iTrader: (5)

here is my cars one.

S3an

every thing just standard internally. msd chip greens.

sierrsteve1980

iTrader: (7)

To be honest si i used him and apparently my peak boost was coming in at 5500rpm when i am running a t34.48, and i only gained 4bhp from an extra .4 bar of boost.

cossie4i+

iTrader: (15)

Heres mine,T34.55, 400s, light head porting, 7.8.1, 4x4 inlet, standard cams.





Steve

Staffi

iTrader: (1)

Here's mine Si, T35.55, standard head, cams etc etc NMS Live Map @ 2bar peak..

rs_traynor

my 2wd cosworth made 390bhp and 391lbft

Rsmat

iTrader: (2)

What spec dude?

BigErn

One of my old Sapph's. The Moonstone 2wd in my sig actually







The bloke that dyno'd it wouldnt let it rev to the limiter even tho I asked him to cos I wanted to see what its AFR was like where it spent most of its life , he basically told me to fuck off and would only run it till it started to drop power then shut off.

T34.55 (27 psi / 1.8bar on the road)
Greens
4x4 intercooler
BD10's on piper pulleys set to 0
Supposed mild ported head
standard comp

Thats how I bought it, it used to come on boost hard on the road and at lower revs too. It was great for coming out of the corners fast and took no asking to flick the back end out. A mate on T34.63 (36psi) and greys couldnt shake me until the speeds got quite quick (120+) when he had the legs on me and would pull away.

rs_traynor

bd10's
ported head
t34/63
-34 actuator
55lb siemens injectors
l8 ecu+MSD closed loop
mapped by MSD

was boostin at just under 19psi

Rsmat

iTrader: (2)

Jesus...ERN...My 3dr did this on a T3 @ 19psi

BigErn

390bhp at 19psi on a T34.63?? Fook me!!

rs_traynor

19psi so it says on the print out mate, but in the car it says peak is 30psi so fook nose...

BigErn

294bhp with 410ft/lb

Mat, the bloke operating it is/was a total cock who hasnt got a clue so I dont really believe anything on that paper. The torque figure is maybe semi-plausable cos it used to fairly pull like a motherfucker. He's useless, my mates brother started to work for him and said in the few month he stayed there the bloke melted numerous customers engines and fried loads of ECU's trying to map them and just generally being shit.

I had a T3 white Sapph, in my sig, that made 329bhp on greens. That used to go well.

Rsmat

iTrader: (2)

Thought they was something wrong mate.

Si B

iTrader: (59)

Thank you everyone for the replies, debate, advice and suggestions

Rather than requote the whole post I'll just throw a few comments back.

First off, have PMed James@MSD my Evolution Chips serial no to see what spec and rev limit it was designed for.

R&B Plenum was mentioned by Mike Rainbird on the Escos forum as well, that's staying as I like it, but it was intended for a much bigger build long term. Not sure if I'll be going that route, but have had a couple people suggest it won't help, and a couple others saying it won't be the sole or main reason for my late boost.

Regarding revs, I've no idea

Rev counter didn't work when I bought the car I thought due to the only recently installed wasted spark. I simply joined the two green wires together that went to the old coil, and the rev counter worked straight away, then soon after the gearbox broke, and the car went off the road for a couple months while I sorted that and a new clutch. Anyway, now back on the road, rev counter dead. Checked the green wires and they're still joined so something else seems to have killed it.

Anyone got any suggestions where to start looking or what to test to see why it's dead?

I have a SECS monitor, but the screen is too small to look at while boosting down the road, so no idea what that's reading, but it does read 1/2 actual revs due to the wasted spark. Will see if I can get some mug to passenger with me next time I give the car some death.

Thanks again for all the input so far

St3V3_C

It's been so long, but doesn't it have a peak value on one of the screens? Reset, rant, read. Easy lol.

CosKev3

This was mine,406bhp/428 lb ft.

T34.63,
Greys with live mapped L8 by MSD with closed loop fueling,
Peaking at 35psi and holding 28psi,
bd10's,
Headwork,
A&H Fabs cooler,
Mongoose exhaust.

Si B

iTrader: (59)

Great minds think alike Steve, guess where I've been for the last 25 mins with a huge grin on my face and V Power soot all over my rear bumper Results at the bottom of this post.

That must go like the clappers, nice



Well as suggested above, took the car for a rant and watched what the SECs got up to. Peak boost on the road in 3rd arrives at 3800 rpm, not the 5200 the rollers reckoned.

Rev limit comes in at 7300 according to the SECS, so seems like James@MSD was right that for the spec, the chip limit is set at 7250 rpm.

So at the very least the DD roller setting was wrong Arse. Will email the guy who runs the place to see what happened.

stu21t

that was a
t34.63
bd14 inlet, bd10 out (poorly timmed)
headwork by neil roper (24.5mm i think)
greys
l8 msd chip
4x4 inlet 10mm spacer
2 pace charge coolers


now for the problems lol

leaky wastegate, meaning 1.3bar was being held spike 1.6 on the road but not rollers
1 charge cooler was leaking into the water system so had a leak into a sealed system, but meant the water didnt flow very well and air temps went up.
bd14 was not timed correctly.
fuel pressure regulator had a leak so pressure didnt rise,
044 wasnt flowing properly.

so not much lol


since this RR ive done the following
bd14 timed properly
bd10 gone and std exhaust cam in
new regulator
new 044
new wastegate assembly

since doing all that its like a new car, so much more responsive and lots more power and fun.
now sees 2bar boost to.

all thats left is a new charge cooler so i get decent charge temps and no leak lol.
then back on the rollers

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

The rev counter itself needs a mod you may have blown the inductor on the driver if it hasn't been done

I can fit you a new one if you fire the Ecu in to me and I'll pop some instructions in of how to do the tachometer mod

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Si, if you fancy popping over mine saturday morning or sunday morning Im quite happy to go up the road looking at your monitor to see what the revs and boost are really doing.